kjgarza · December 27, 2025 18:15
diff --git a/feed.xml b/feed.xml
 <?xml version='1.0' encoding='UTF-8'?>
 <rss xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/" version="2.0">
  <channel>
    <title>Untitled Feed</title>
    <link>https://example.com</link>
    <description>Untitled Feed</description>
    <docs>http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification</docs>
    <generator>python-feedgen</generator>
    <lastBuildDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2025 17:37:39 +0000</lastBuildDate>
    <item>
      <title>LangChain "Chains vs Agents" Webinar</title>
      <link>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYLHklxEd_k</link>
      <description>Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">c5c7f56c8bbc580c</guid>
      <category>video</category>
      <category>inhalte</category>
      <category>youtube</category>
      <category>videos</category>
      <category>teilen</category>
      <category>musik</category>
      <enclosure url="https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bYLHklxEd_k/maxresdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCIAKENAF8quKqQMa8AEB-AH-CYAC0AWKAgwIABABGEkgWChlMA8=&amp;rs=AOn4CLB88aLlKOekAgkya0ont6Pbf3UWPw" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Mastering Natural Language to SQL with LangChain and LangSmith | NL2SQL | With Code 👇</title>
      <link>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fss6CrmQU2Y&amp;si=XnKD3CZqw8NDICCv</link>
      <description>Embark on a journey to redefine database querying with "Mastering Natural Language to SQL with LangChain | NL2SQL." This in-depth video guide will navigate y...</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">b5af251a07fc6f70</guid>
      <category>video</category>
      <category>langchain</category>
      <category>querying</category>
      <category>database</category>
      <category>youtube</category>
      <category>nl2sql</category>
      <category>natural-language</category>
      <enclosure url="https://i.ytimg.com/vi/fss6CrmQU2Y/maxresdefault.jpg" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Function Calling with Local Models &amp; LangChain - Ollama, Llama3 &amp; Phi-3</title>
      <link>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_GdU0KqE0</link>
      <description>Code : https://github.com/samwit/agent_tutorials/tree/main/ollama_agents/llama3_localFor more tutorials on using LLMs and building Agents, check out my Patre...</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">f94b78834d92283c</guid>
      <category>tutorials</category>
      <category>video</category>
      <category>code</category>
      <category>llm</category>
      <category>agents</category>
      <category>youtube</category>
      <category>github</category>
      <enclosure url="https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ss_GdU0KqE0/maxresdefault.jpg" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Chromium Overview</title>
      <link>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u11lbUWEeYI&amp;si=2VC-W_IOjZ7b4qVN</link>
      <description>An overview of the Chromium open source project, it's history, scope, organization and principals. In addition, one leader's perspective on our community, ho...</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">2ff1e1b58902f23b</guid>
      <category>video</category>
      <category>project</category>
      <category>history</category>
      <category>youtube</category>
      <category>open-source</category>
      <category>community</category>
      <category>chromium</category>
      <enclosure url="https://i.ytimg.com/vi/u11lbUWEeYI/maxresdefault.jpg" length="0" type="image/jpeg"/>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Space Emerging from Quantum Mechanics – Sean Carroll</title>
      <link>https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2016/07/18/space-emerging-from-quantum-mechanics/</link>
      <description>&lt;div&gt;&lt;title&gt;&lt;p&gt;Space Emerging from Quantum Mechanics – Sean Carroll&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/title&gt;&lt;body&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;header&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Sean Carroll&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/header&gt;&lt;main&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;h1&gt;Space Emerging from Quantum Mechanics&lt;/h1&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Written by&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div&gt;Sean Carroll&lt;/div&gt;&lt;p&gt;in&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div&gt;arxiv, Science&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;The other day I was amused to find a quote from Einstein, in 1936, about how hard it would be to quantize gravity: “like an attempt to breathe in empty space.” Eight decades later, I think we can still agree that it’s hard.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So here is a possibility worth considering: rather than quantizing gravity, maybe we should try to gravitize quantum mechanics. Or, more accurately but less evocatively, “find gravity inside quantum mechanics.” Rather than starting with some essentially classical view of gravity and “quantizing” it, we might imagine starting with a quantum view of reality from the start, and find the ordinary three-dimensional space in which we live somehow emerging from quantum information. That’s the project that ChunJun (Charles) Cao, Spyridon (Spiros) Michalakis, and I take a few tentative steps toward in a new paper.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We human beings, even those who have been studying quantum mechanics for a long time, still think in terms of a classical concepts. Positions, momenta, particles, fields, space itself. Quantum mechanics tells a different story. The quantum state of the universe is not a collection of things distributed through space, but something called a wave function. The wave function gives us a way of calculating the outcomes of measurements: whenever we measure an observable quantity like the position or momentum or spin of a particle, the wave function has a value for every possible outcome, and the probability of obtaining that outcome is given by the wave function squared. Indeed, that’s typically how we construct wave functions in practice. Start with some classical-sounding notion like “the position of a particle” or “the amplitude of a field,” and to each possible value we attach a complex number. That complex number, squared, gives us the probability of observing the system with that observed value.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Mathematically, wave functions are elements of a mathematical structure called Hilbert space. That means they are vectors — we can add quantum states together (the origin of superpositions in quantum mechanics) and calculate the angle (“dot product”) between them. (We’re skipping over some technicalities here, especially regarding complex numbers — see e.g. The Theoretical Minimum for more.) The word “space” in “Hilbert space” doesn’t mean the good old three-dimensional space we walk through every day, or even the four-dimensional spacetime of relativity. It’s just math-speak for “a collection of things,” in this case “possible quantum states of the universe.”&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Hilbert space is quite an abstract thing, which can seem at times pretty removed from the tangible phenomena of our everyday lives. This leads some people to wonder whether we need to supplement ordinary quantum mechanics by additional new variables, or alternatively to imagine that wave functions reflect our knowledge of the world, rather than being representations of reality. For purposes of this post I’ll take the straightforward view that quantum mechanics says that the real world is best described by a wave function, an element of Hilbert space, evolving through time. (Of course time could be emergent too ... something for another day.)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Here’s the thing: we can construct a Hilbert space by starting with a classical idea like “all possible positions of a particle” and attaching a complex number to each value, obtaining a wave function. All the conceivable wave functions of that form constitute the Hilbert space we’re interested in. But we don’t have to do it that way. As Einstein might have said, God doesn’t do it that way. Once we make wave functions by quantizing some classical system, we have states that live in Hilbert space. At this point it essentially doesn’t matter where we came from; now we’re in Hilbert space and we’ve left our classical starting point behind. Indeed, it’s well-known that very different classical theories lead to the same theory when we quantize them, and likewise some quantum theories don’t have classical predecessors at all.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The real world simply is quantum-mechanical from the start; it’s not a quantization of some classical system. The universe is described by an element of Hilbert space. All of our usual classical notions should be derived from that, not the other way around. Even space itself. We think of the space through which we move as one of the most basic and irreducible constituents of the real world, but it might be better thought of as an approximate notion that emerges at large distances and low energies.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So here is the task we set for ourselves: start with a quantum state in Hilbert space. Not a random or generic state, admittedly; a particular kind of state. Divide Hilbert space up into pieces — technically, factors that we multiply together to make the whole space. Use quantum information — in particular, the amount of entanglement between different parts of the state, as measured by the mutual information — to define a “distance” between them. Parts that are highly entangled are considered to be nearby, while unentangled parts are far away. This gives us a graph, in which vertices are the different parts of Hilbert space, and the edges are weighted by the emergent distance between them.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We can then ask two questions:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;ol&gt;&lt;li&gt;When we zoom out, does the graph take on the geometry of a smooth, flat space with a fixed number of dimensions? (Answer: yes, when we put in the right kind of state to start with.)&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;If we perturb the state a little bit, how does the emergent geometry change? (Answer: space curves in response to emergent mass/energy, in a way reminiscent of Einstein’s equation in general relativity.)&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;&lt;p&gt;It’s that last bit that is most exciting, but also most speculative. The claim, in its most dramatic-sounding form, is that gravity (spacetime curvature caused by energy/momentum) isn’t hard to obtain in quantum mechanics — it’s automatic! Or at least, the most natural thing to expect. If geometry is defined by entanglement and quantum information, then perturbing the state (e.g. by adding energy) naturally changes that geometry. And if the model matches onto an emergent field theory at large distances, the most natural relationship between energy and curvature is given by Einstein’s equation. The optimistic view is that gravity just pops out effortlessly in the classical limit of an appropriate quantum system. But the devil is in the details, and there’s a long way to go before we can declare victory.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Here’s the abstract for our paper:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Space from Hilbert Space: Recovering Geometry from Bulk Entanglement ChunJun Cao, Sean M. Carroll, Spyridon Michalakis&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We examine how to construct a spatial manifold and its geometry from the entanglement structure of an abstract quantum state in Hilbert space. Given a decomposition of Hilbert space H into a tensor product of factors, we consider a class of “redundancy-constrained states” in H that generalize the area-law behavior for entanglement entropy usually found in condensed-matter systems with gapped local Hamiltonians. Using mutual information to define a distance measure on the graph, we employ classical multidimensional scaling to extract the best-fit spatial dimensionality of the emergent geometry. We then show that entanglement perturbations on such emergent geometries naturally give rise to local modifications of spatial curvature which obey a (spatial) analog of Einstein’s equation. The Hilbert space corresponding to a region of flat space is finite-dimensional and scales as the volume, though the entropy (and the maximum change thereof) scales like the area of the boundary. A version of the ER=EPR conjecture is recovered, in that perturbations that entangle distant parts of the emergent geometry generate a configuration that may be considered as a highly quantum wormhole.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Like almost any physics paper, we’re building on ideas that have come before. The idea that spacetime geometry is related to entanglement has become increasingly popular, although it’s mostly been explored in the holographic context of the AdS/CFT correspondence; here we’re working directly in the “bulk” region of space, not appealing to a faraway boundary. A related notion is the ER=EPR conjecture of Maldacena and Susskind, relating entanglement to wormholes. In some sense, we’re making this proposal a bit more specific, by giving a formula for distance as a function of entanglement. The relationship of geometry to energy comes from something called the Entanglement First Law, articulated by Faulkner et al., and used by Ted Jacobson in a version of entropic gravity. But as far as we know we’re the first to start directly from Hilbert space, rather than assuming classical variables, a boundary, or a background spacetime. (There’s an enormous amount of work that has been done in closely related areas, obviously, so I’d love to hear about anything in particular that we should know about.)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We’re quick to admit that what we’ve done here is extremely preliminary and conjectural. We don’t have a full theory of anything, and even what we do have involves a great deal of speculating and not yet enough rigorous calculating.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Most importantly, we’ve assumed that parts of Hilbert space that are highly entangled are also “nearby,” but we haven’t actually derived that fact. It’s certainly what should happen, according to our current understanding of quantum field theory. It might seem like entangled particles can be as far apart as you like, but the contribution of particles to the overall entanglement is almost completely negligible — it’s the quantum vacuum itself that carries almost all of the entanglement, and that’s how we derive our geometry.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But it remains to be seen whether this notion really matches what we think of as “distance.” To do that, it’s not sufficient to talk about space, we also need to talk about time, and how states evolve. That’s an obvious next step, but one we’ve just begun to think about. It raises a variety of intimidating questions. What is the appropriate Hamiltonian that actually generates time evolution? Is time fundamental and continuous, or emergent and discrete? Can we derive an emergent theory that includes not only curved space and time, but other quantum fields? Will those fields satisfy the relativistic condition of being invariant under Lorentz transformations? Will gravity, in particular, have propagating degrees of freedom corresponding to spin-2 gravitons? (And only one kind of graviton, coupled universally to energy-momentum?) Full employment for the immediate future.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Perhaps the most interesting and provocative feature of what we’ve done is that we start from an assumption that the degrees of freedom corresponding to any particular region of space are described by a finite-dimensional Hilbert space. In some sense this is natural, as it follows from the Bekenstein bound (on the total entropy that can fit in a region) or the holographic principle (which limits degrees of freedom by the area of the boundary of their region). But on the other hand, it’s completely contrary to what we’re used to thinking about from quantum field theory, which generally assumes that the number of degrees of freedom in any region of space is infinitely big, corresponding to an infinite-dimensional Hilbert space. (By itself that’s not so worrisome; a single simple harmonic oscillator is described by an infinite-dimensional Hilbert space, just because its energy can be arbitrarily large.) People like Jacobson and Seth Lloyd have argued, on pretty general grounds, that any theory with gravity will locally be described by finite-dimensional Hilbert spaces.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That’s a big deal, if true, and I don’t think we physicists have really absorbed the consequences of the idea as yet. Field theory is embedded in how we think about the world; all of the notorious infinities of particle physics that we work so hard to renormalize away owe their existence to the fact that there are an infinite number of degrees of freedom. A finite-dimensional Hilbert space describes a very different world indeed. In many ways, it’s a much simpler world — one that should be easier to understand. We shall see.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Part of me thinks that a picture along these lines — geometry emerging from quantum information, obeying a version of Einstein’s equation in the classical limit — pretty much has to be true, if you believe (1) regions of space have a finite number of degrees of freedom, and (2) the world is described by a wave function in Hilbert space. Those are fairly reasonable postulates, all by themselves, but of course there could be any number of twists and turns to get where we want to go, if indeed it’s possible. Personally I think the prospects are exciting, and I’m eager to see where these ideas lead us.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;h3&gt;Related Posts:&lt;/h3&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;arxiv Find: Universal Quantum Mechanics&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Is Relativity Hard?&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;From Eternity to Book Club: Chapter Eleven&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;h2&gt;Comments&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;h3 id="comments"&gt;70 responses to “Space Emerging from Quantum Mechanics”&lt;/h3&gt;&lt;ol&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312564"&gt;July 18, 2016Ben GorenExciting stuff — thanks for letting us peek over your shoulder like this!This seems to me, as a layperson, very closely related to something I’ve been thinking a fair bit about recently.If we are to take seriously that everything is waves, then there’s something big missing from all the for-the-lay-audience explanations of QM. Take the double-slit experiment: the electron wave diffracts past the slits; when it reaches the detector, magic happens. It might be the collapse of the wave function or the branching of the universe or whatever......but all those explanations only make sense if the detector is, itself, a monolithic classical (if not Platonic) entity.But if it’s instead an assemblage of waves...then “detection” can only mean the interaction of one of the electron waves in the detector with the diffracted electron wave — a phosphorus atom absorbs the electron and spits it back out with a photon, a charge is induced in an element in the CCD array, whatever.And if we assume that waves only interact when there’s some sort of interference pattern, and that the electron waves in the detector aren’t coherently synchronized, then it becomes mostly an anthropic matter as to which particular electron wave in the detector will be the one to first intersect with the diffracted electron wave. It would tend to happen more often when the diffracted electron wave is itself cresting, which is what we observe. And the particle-like nature of the observation is due entirely to the electron waves in the detector being tightly confined to very small locations.I can’t be brilliant enough to be the first person to think of this, so I’m sure there must be something I’m missing...so can anybody point me in the right direction to understand where the mystery really lies?Cheers,b&amp;amp;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312565"&gt;July 18, 2016BeeHi Sean,I was just reading your paper yesterday! Or tried to read it – I don’t think I really understood it :/ I have a question for you. If you’d take a different starting point, not by constructing space from the Hilbert-space by introducing a distance measure based on entanglement, but by instead defining space as that variable which makes a Hamiltonian local, would that pop out the metric as the thing necessary to contract the local terms? I’m wondering about this because this might tell you more about just what limit one is taking there and about the Hamiltonian rather than just the Hilbert space. (It might also help with the Lorentz-invariance issue.)Best,B.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312566"&gt;July 18, 2016Steve RuisNo only do “We human beings, even those who have been studying quantum mechanics for a long time, still think in terms of a classical concepts.” but we tend to concretize things. Not only are wave functions mathematical abstractions, but they are one or more steps removed from any kind of reality at all. Using wave forms to describe electromagnetic waves has lead people to think the “waves” are objects rather than the fluctuations between two kinds of charges. I tried with college freshmen to do a thought experiment in which they were an electron and they would be grazed by EMR, being attracted and repelled in quick succession but even that got concretized. The waves were real to them as if the ether were back somehow and the idea of a supportive abstraction not connected to reality hadn’t yet become possible for them. It’s true for the gen pop, too I am afraid.Still working my way through your book; still finding it fascinating.Thanks for your blog!&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312567"&gt;July 18, 2016Sean CarrollBen– Yes, the detector and slit and everything else in a double-slit experiments are ultimately quantum-mechanical, even if we often speak of them as classical. It’s a standard approximation, for objects that are not themselves interfering or exhibiting other quantum characteristics. I’m not sure where “anthropic” comes into the discussion, though. You might be thinking of the question of “pointer states,” which describe which quantum states systems decohere into.Bee– Something like that might happen, it’s the kind of thing we’re looking into. But for this paper we don’t even have a Hamiltonian at all, since we’re just looking at states at a fixed time. That was an intentional choice, as frankly we’re not sure what the appropriate Hamiltonian would be.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312568"&gt;July 18, 2016Andrea marshHistory tells us that the solution to understanding all, inc gravitation will come by accident, and picked up by some Observant person . Most future evolvement looked at. from say 100 years or 200 year backwards in time has shown that Modern concepts of quantum as against classical is but a small but a jump fought over initially. A digital or wave function universe is all we have at present. Spacetime is digital or wave function, but the suggestion that it is digital but in rod forms, seems stupid or heretical . The fight is between Edison and Tesla in its apparent propositions. Both exceptional men , one dying in poverty and the other in affluence. I know which tesla items I use each day. Long live heretical thoughts.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312569"&gt;July 18, 2016Bob ZannelliThis approach , if correct, takes away some of the mystery of non locality in Quantum Mechanics as evidenced for example in correlated measurement records in EPR type experiments. It’s a very attractive idea, and it might be right.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312570"&gt;July 18, 2016Ben GorenSean,What I’m driving at, I think...we can clearly see the crests and troughs of the wave of the electron that gets diffracted. Each electron in the detector is going to have similar crests and troughs, right? Only they’re tightly confined to the locations of their atoms.If the crest of the diffracted electron wave reaches an electron in the detector when the detector’s electron’s wave is cresting, you presumably get constructive interference and an “observation.” But the electrons in the detector aren’t synchronized, right? So the individual electron closest to the slits might be at a minimum when the wave of the diffracted electron reaches it, so the two don’t interact. Rarely, none of the electrons in the bright part of the interference pattern are cresting at the right moment, and it’s one in the dark spots that happens to be cresting in such a way that the two can interact.Or, put differently: what would you observe if the detector weren’t the traditional type, but, instead, a phosphorus-bearing molecule that had itself been sent through a double-slit diffraction?Yet another way: what is the actual nature of the isolated interaction between the diffracted electron and the one spot on the detector where the observation actually happens? Not how that spot happened to be the one where the interaction took place; once whatever form of magic narrows it down to that particular site, what is it that happens at the site?I’d bet a cup of coffee (but no more!) that a complete answer to what’s actually happening when the wave of the diffracted electron interacts with the wave of the single electron in the detector where the observation happens...that such a complete answer will also explain the proper interpretation of QM (Everett, Copenhagen, whatever). And I don’t at all think it’s a stretch to suggest that the “particle nature” of particles is due entirely to the fact that our detectors are manufactured in such a way as to confine their own particles’s waves to very small (atomic-scale) scales.The old joke about the drunk looking for keys under the lamppost comes to mind...as I understand it, we’ve only ever tried to observe nature at that scale with devices that are themselves particle-like by design and construction. Can we, even in theory, design wave-like observers that’re as diffuse as the diffracted electrons themselves?...keeping in mind, of course, that any cameras as well as our own eyes are, of necessity, going to resolve anything into points....Cheers,b&amp;amp;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312573"&gt;July 18, 2016Tim’s MomBeware that space may be emergent while there is some aspect of time that is yet not emergent.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312574"&gt;July 18, 2016Don FloodWilliam Lane Craig will appeal to Occam’s razor against polytheism by postulating that “more things should not be used than are necessary”, and yet, Craig will not apply the same standard with respect to theism.I can’t say that you’re on the right track or not, but keep going!&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312575"&gt;July 18, 2016kashyap vasavadaAccording to my understanding, entanglement is strictly independent of the physical distance between the two particles whereas gravity is strictly dependent on the distance. So it is surprising that gravity can emerge from your starting point of QM entanglement. If you were talking about CC it would be different.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312576"&gt;July 18, 2016John Hasler“That complex number, squared, gives us the probability of observing the system with that observed value.”I really wish you wouldn’t do this. Surely anyone who knows what a complex number is can understand a norm. Say “the square of the magnitude of that complex number” if you have to.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312577"&gt;July 18, 2016LeonardIt’s good to see more physicists thinking about finitism. Time to limit the influence of mathematics on physics. Get rid of zero, infinity, continuity. Use only discrete mathematics. More people are saying that we don’t have evidence of infinity in experience. Right. Now what about zero? Not even the vacuum is the absence of everything. It doesn’t happen. Yes, I have no bananas is not the same as zero bananas. No bananas is a temporal condition. Zero bananas is a mathematical condition, which is just fine in some systems, but not in reality. We have no experience of zero. No additive identity. If I have one banana and I add zero bananas, how many bananas do I have left? That’s nonsensical. No dividing by zero. Excludes infinities right away.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312579"&gt;July 18, 2016JochenThanks for the interesting post. I’m following this whole area closely—my training is in quantum information theory, so there’s at least one half of the arguments I’m able to understand.I think an interesting precursor, at least in spirit, is the program due to C. F. v. Weizsäcker with his ‘ur theory’, originating sometime in the 50s I believe: to the best of my knowledge, he was the first to propose that space should emerge from the quantum, rather than there being some sort of quantization of gravity. His basic starting point was a reconstruction of what he called ‘abstract quantum theory’, that is, a theory not stemming from the quantization of some concrete system, but rather, an axiomatic framework based on the notion of his ‘ur alternative’ (which is basically a dichotomous measurement, a bit, or, in the quantum version, what would today be called a qubit), from which then everything else was supposed to be derived—space and time, gravitation, even particles and forces.His argumentation was very heuristic at times, and he (and his collaborators) ultimately couldn’t carry the program through to completion, and it’s far from clear whether it’s possible at all; but I like to think of the modern approach as at least its spiritual successor. Unfortunately, much of the literature on this approach is in German; there does exist a recent English version of Weizsäcker’s Der Aufbau der Physik, as The Structure of Physics, translated by Holger Lyre and Thomas Görnitz, if you’re interested. Also, some papers of Lyre, such as this one, probably work as the best commonly-available introduction to (and, to some extent, continuation of) the program.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312580"&gt;July 18, 2016Alan ByrneA book which covers time emerging from a hilbert space is “The end of time” by Julian Barbour which I found fascinating and seems to have some overlap with what you’re discussing. Also, doesn’t David Deutsch touch upon some of these ideas in his work too? I’ve found this general approach very alluring and would be great to see it all tie together, good luck with your future efforts!&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312582"&gt;July 18, 2016L DomashHow does this relate to work of Erik Verlinde?&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312583"&gt;July 18, 2016Andrew NDear Sean, Is the electron spread out through space prior to measurement?&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312584"&gt;July 18, 2016Marcio R G MaiaHow these ideas relate to Manfred Requardt work, such as “Space-Time as an Orderparameter Manifold in Random Networks and the Emergence of Physical Points” (gr-qc 9902031) and subsequent articles? Some of them are quite recent, including some 2015 and 2016 papers.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312585"&gt;July 18, 2016jonathan pressburgerwhat about “spin networks” and “spinors” and Penrose’s “twistors” space IS quantizednot a physicist&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312586"&gt;July 18, 2016zarzuelazenWant another really crazy idea from yours truly? 😉 How about this:Neither ordinary space-time nor Hilbert space are more or less fundamental than each other, but rather each is on an equal footing, as a *partial* explanation of reality.If true, you could equally well reverse what the paper says, and show that Hilbert space is ’emergent’ from ordinary space-time ( a circular loop in reality).Lets add ‘time’ to the mix as well, and say that that also can equally be taken as ‘fundamental’ or ’emergent’ – it’s purely a choice of which description you want to use.There is a philosophical position known as ‘epistemological pluralism’ that supports this idea – rather than there being one universal explanation of reality, the idea is that there are only multiple partial explanations.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312587"&gt;July 18, 2016Eric WisemanSean, Two analogies support your position. #1. Michelangelo thinking of releasing David from the stone. He already had certain wave functions in mind. #2 and related is that stone that David was in is the center ball of a Newton’s cradle.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312588"&gt;July 18, 2016Jimmy WortelAndrea marsh on said here that History tells us that the solution to understanding all, inc gravitation will come by accident”Well I won’t go for “by accident”, I like “by thinking” is better. If this article is wrong, can anybody tell me then why we see a star in a place where it was million of years ago?Something else, about super nova, why “gravity” gets aggressive only when (fuel finishes)? I’m sure that gravity itself also till now wrong explained.You can read this article about light here: https://waseinsteinwrong.wordpress.com/2016/07/17/annie-parker-vs-einstein/&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312589"&gt;July 18, 2016Peter MinkowskiFine, but still loose ends remain&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312591"&gt;July 18, 2016zarzuelazenTo elaborate on my ‘epistemological pluralism’ idea:You have 3 entities here: Space, Hilbert Space and TimeMy hypothesis is that you could pick any two as ‘fundamental’ and then derive the third one as ’emergent’. It’s all a big circular loop with 3 partial explanations of reality.So you could have:(1) Hilbert Space + Time = Space (2) Space + Time = Hilbert Space (3) Hilbert Space+ Space = TimeYour paper is about (1), so if I’m right, you need to have time as ‘fundamental’ to derive ordinary space. But I’m suggesting that whether something is ‘fundamental’ or ’emergent’ is purely a choice of description. If you want to derive time as ’emergent’, then you can go with (3).&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312592"&gt;July 19, 2016GaehazziThe EPR paradox rests on the notion that far-apart entangled entities violate the finiteness of the speed of light. If spatial distance is redefined as related to the level of entanglement, the paradoxal nature of EPR might just go away. (Tightly entangled entities are as near as appropriate, regardless of the conventional distance between them.) Is that so in the CCM idea? And if so, what’s the nature of the emergent speed of light?&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li id="comment-7295910552604312594"&gt;July 19, 2016Andrew CoxFascinating stuff Sean. Does this imply that entaglement cannot be conserved over arbitrarily large distances ?&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;h2&gt;More posts&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;ThanksgivingNovember 27, 2025&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;George B. Field, 1929-2024August 5, 2024&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;New Course: The Many Hidden Worlds of Quantum MechanicsNovember 27, 2023&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;ThanksgivingNovember 23, 2023&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/main&gt;&lt;footer&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;h2&gt;Sean Carroll&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;p&gt;in truth, only atoms and the void&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Twenty Twenty-Five&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Designed with WordPress&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/footer&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/body&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">3d6b06755123e500</guid>
      <category>quantum</category>
      <pubDate>Mon, 18 Jul 2016 09:06:43 -0700</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>3 Ways to Come Up With a Great Idea Without Overthinking It</title>
      <link>https://www.adweek.com/agencies/3-ways-to-come-up-with-a-great-idea-without-overthinking-it/</link>
      <description>Mind-blowing creative won’t just materialize into existence (unfortunately).</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">c44e8c795a655791</guid>
      <category>agencies</category>
      <category>creativity</category>
      <category>overthinking</category>
      <category>inspiration</category>
      <category>ideas</category>
      <pubDate>Fri, 23 Aug 2019 11:18:27 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>MLOps: The New Role in Data Science</title>
      <link>https://www.cio.com/article/402238/mlops-the-new-role-in-data-science.html</link>
      <description>The demand for consistent, reliable insights in-house has brought about a new role – the machine learning operations (MLOps) analyst. In this Q&amp;A we learn about this role and what it can mean for companies and data science teams.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">fcc368b3d38c675e</guid>
      <category>digital-transformation</category>
      <category>mlops</category>
      <category>cloud-computing</category>
      <category>data-science</category>
      <category>artificial-intelligence</category>
      <pubDate>Wed, 29 Jun 2022 09:49:00 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Productionizing HuggingFace Transformers?</title>
      <link>https://discuss.huggingface.co/t/productionizing-huggingface-transformers/23017</link>
      <description>what’s a common reference architecture for companies that use sentence transformers via huggingface in production?  i was thinking:  api gateway → queue → serverless (sentence transformer module)  is it best to co-locate the model file in my lambda VPN? looking for any and all best practices.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">2323b11e7a5cb17f</guid>
      <category>production</category>
      <category>huggingface</category>
      <category>nlp</category>
      <category>api</category>
      <category>transformers</category>
      <pubDate>Mon, 12 Sep 2022 11:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Fine-tuned model for German court cases</title>
      <link>https://community.openai.com/t/fine-tuned-model-for-german-court-cases/24149</link>
      <description>Hi! I am thinking about creating a fine-tuned GPT model for german court cases.  The idea: The user should be able input a fictional case and the model should return the expected ruling of German courts.  My approach: I have access to 600 000 German court rulings, from which I could build a dataset to fine-tune a model with. I would put the case-text as the prompt and then the ruling as the completion.  My question: Do you think this would work out. Is the effort worth it?  Also: I noticed that </description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">5a4fb9fce79fb739</guid>
      <category>fine-tuning</category>
      <category>ai</category>
      <category>legal</category>
      <category>german-court</category>
      <category>model</category>
      <pubDate>Sat, 10 Dec 2022 03:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>DataCite Design System is ready to be worn. - DataCite</title>
      <link>https://datacite.org/blog/datacite-design-system-is-ready-to-be-worn/</link>
      <description>At DataCite, we are excited to announce the introduction of our new design system. As an organization that values collaboration and innovation, we constantly look for ways to improve our processes and products. That is why we have developed a design system that will provide our teams with a consistent and user-friendly design language for our web services.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">db120160276f05fa</guid>
      <category>system</category>
      <category>datacite</category>
      <category>design</category>
      <category>innovation</category>
      <category>user-experience</category>
      <pubDate>Thu, 09 Mar 2023 15:01:38 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>GraphQL introspection as an alternative to an OpenAPI spec for plugins</title>
      <link>https://community.openai.com/t/graphql-introspection-as-an-alternative-to-an-openapi-spec-for-plugins/217606</link>
      <description>Currently a chatGPT plug-in needs needs to implement a REST API server with an OpenAPI spec. Every graphql API automatically comes with formal, machine readable, documentation (via introspection queries). Considering that there is a rich ecosystem of tools which expose a graphql API ( for instance, hasura; disclosure: I work for them but speaking for myself), I think supporting graphql apis in addition to REST/OpenAPI’s  could be really powerful.  (a similar question was asked here, but it’s not</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">2c59420cb8371113</guid>
      <category>documentation</category>
      <category>plugin-development</category>
      <category>graphql</category>
      <category>api</category>
      <category>chatgpt</category>
      <pubDate>Thu, 18 May 2023 22:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Building a magical AI-powered semantic search from scratch - The Blog of Maxime Heckel</title>
      <link>https://blog.maximeheckel.com/posts/building-magical-ai-powered-semantic-search/</link>
      <description>An end-to-end walkthrough on how to build a semantic search from your own MDX or Markdown based content using Postgres vector similarity search and OpenAI's text embeddings and chat completion APIs.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">5261857da9378939</guid>
      <category>semantic-search</category>
      <category>large-language-models</category>
      <category>ai</category>
      <category>content-indexing</category>
      <category>user-experience</category>
      <pubDate>Tue, 06 Jun 2023 08:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Unlocking the Power of API Pagination: Best Practices and Strategies</title>
      <link>https://dev.to/pragativerma18/unlocking-the-power-of-api-pagination-best-practices-and-strategies-4b49</link>
      <description>In the modern application development and data integration world, APIs (Application Programming...</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">b0812ded00ba10e4</guid>
      <category>api</category>
      <pubDate>Tue, 06 Jun 2023 15:07:06 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Emerging Architectures for LLM Applications | Andreessen Horowitz</title>
      <link>https://a16z.com/emerging-architectures-for-llm-applications/</link>
      <description>A reference architecture for the LLM app stack. It shows the most common systems, tools, and design patterns used by AI startups and tech companies.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">541ad21d9c2c852d</guid>
      <category>llm</category>
      <pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2023 12:23:51 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>How to write better prompts for GitHub Copilot</title>
      <link>https://github.blog/developer-skills/github/how-to-write-better-prompts-for-github-copilot/</link>
      <description>In this prompt guide for GitHub Copilot, two GitHub developer advocates, Rizel and Michelle, will share examples and best practices for communicating your desired results to the AI pair programmer.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">aa451254896cf196</guid>
      <category>github</category>
      <pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2023 16:00:08 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>LangChain: Chat with Your Data, a new free short course created with Harrison Chase, is now available! In this 1 hour course, you’ll learn how to build one of the most requested LLM-based… | Andrew Ng | 224 comments</title>
      <link>https://www.linkedin.com/posts/andrewyng_langchain-chat-with-your-data-a-new-free-ugcPost-7082387814180409345-pSu3?utm_source=share&amp;utm_medium=member_android</link>
      <description>LangChain: Chat with Your Data, a new free short course created with Harrison Chase, is now available! 

 In this 1 hour course, you’ll learn how to build one of the most requested LLM-based applications: Answering questions using information from a document or collection of documents (often called Retrieval Augmented Generation). You'll also learn how to use vector stores and embeddings to retrieve document chunks relevant to a query. 

 Check it out here: https://lnkd.in/gxTfH4M5 | 224 comments </description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">ea1ce18bf5685e3a</guid>
      <category>llm</category>
      <category>langchain</category>
      <category>data</category>
      <category>retrieval-augmented-generation</category>
      <category>course</category>
      <pubDate>Wed, 05 Jul 2023 16:01:55 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>The future of academic publishing</title>
      <link>https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-023-01637-2?s=09</link>
      <description>Academic publishing is the backbone of science dissemination –– but is the current system fit for purpose? We asked a diverse group of scientists to comment on the future of publishing. They discuss systemic issues, challenges, and opportunities, and share their vision for the future.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">1d91f67c4341ff51</guid>
      <category>academic</category>
      <pubDate>Thu, 13 Jul 2023 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Patterns for Building LLM-based Systems &amp; Products</title>
      <link>https://eugeneyan.com/writing/llm-patterns/</link>
      <description>Evals, RAG, fine-tuning, caching, guardrails, defensive UX, and collecting user feedback.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">ade36d533d256814</guid>
      <category>llm</category>
      <pubDate>Sun, 30 Jul 2023 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>vercel-kv</title>
      <link>https://pypi.org/project/vercel-kv/</link>
      <description>https://vercel.com/docs/storage/vercel-kv/rest-api</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">093e846dd8158692</guid>
      <category>storage</category>
      <category>vercel-kv</category>
      <category>api</category>
      <category>package</category>
      <category>python</category>
      <pubDate>Thu, 17 Aug 2023 04:42:09 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>#generativeai #imagegeneration #typography #usability #userexperience #artificialintelligence #visualdesign | Jakob Nielsen | 19 comments</title>
      <link>https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jakobnielsenphd_generativeai-imagegeneration-typography-activity-7101262048092725248-GeW7?utm_source=share&amp;utm_medium=member_android</link>
      <description>🌟 Introducing Ideogram, a groundbreaking #GenerativeAI platform specifically tailored for #ImageGeneration 🎨 fused with #Typography 📝. While "typography" might be a generous term — given the somewhat unpredictable choice of typefaces — the platform nails the integration of text in a way that's far ahead of the curve 📈. (The website is the name of the company followed by dot-ai: https://ideogram.ai/ )

 I put Ideogram to the test with two of my all-time favorite UX slogans 💬. Although the results </description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">266c4765641a2ed7</guid>
      <category>userexperience</category>
      <category>imagegeneration</category>
      <category>usability</category>
      <category>typography</category>
      <category>generativeai</category>
      <pubDate>Sat, 26 Aug 2023 18:00:07 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Big Farms and Flawless Fries Are Gulping Water in the Land of 10,000 Lakes</title>
      <link>https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/09/03/climate/minnesota-drought-potatoes.html</link>
      <description>When Minnesota farmers cranked up their powerful wells, they blew through state limits. Thirsty crops included corn, soybeans and perfect, fry-friendly potatoes.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">defb7451cd400dfc</guid>
      <category>water</category>
      <category>minnesota</category>
      <category>farming</category>
      <category>drought</category>
      <category>agriculture</category>
      <pubDate>Sun, 03 Sep 2023 09:00:40 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Die Digitale Rechtsantragstelle – was wir durch Nutzendenforschung über Beratungshilfe gelernt haben | DigitalService</title>
      <link>https://digitalservice.bund.de/blog/digitale-rechtsantragstelle-nutzendenforschung</link>
      <description>07. September 2023 - Im Rahmen der Entwicklung einer digitalen Rechtsanstragstelle konnten wir mithilfe von &lt;span lang="en"&gt;User-Research&lt;/span&gt; wichtige Erkenntnisse gewinnen und in unsere Arbeit einfließen lassen.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">fb96aae6aa42ffa2</guid>
      <category>digitalisierung</category>
      <category>beratungshilfe</category>
      <category>justiz</category>
      <category>digitale-rechtsantragstelle</category>
      <category>nutzendenforschung</category>
      <pubDate>Thu, 07 Sep 2023 07:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>How to Stream JSON Data Using Server-Sent Events and FastAPI in Python over HTTP?</title>
      <link>https://learning.workfall.com/learning/blog/how-to-stream-json-data-using-server-sent-events-and-fastapi-in-python-over-http/</link>
      <description>Learn how to stream JSON data with Server-Sent Events and FastAPI in Python, enhancing real-time communication over HTTP.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">c305dfacdc444787</guid>
      <category>streaming</category>
      <pubDate>Tue, 26 Sep 2023 13:58:37 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Rethinking the Luddites in the Age of A.I.</title>
      <link>https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/rethinking-the-luddites-in-the-age-of-ai</link>
      <description>Brian Merchant’s new book, “Blood in the Machine,” argues that Luddism stood not against technology per se but for the rights of workers in the face of automation.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">10ff6d80b002aef2</guid>
      <category>automation</category>
      <category>luddites</category>
      <category>history</category>
      <category>technology</category>
      <category>workers-rights</category>
      <pubDate>Tue, 26 Sep 2023 18:36:22 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>LLM and Data Repositories</title>
      <link>https://zenodo.org/records/8388992</link>
      <description>Presentation for the CLARIAH Tech and Data Day on the decentralized research data infrastructure, LLM and Data Repositories. We're building distributed knowledge graph based on Dataverse data network producing structured data and providing provenance information which could be used as ground truth for the Machine Learning in general and Large Language Models specifically. This approach also allows deep integration of LLM with KG providing researchers with opportunities to "talk" to data just lik</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">f01197eaca2bdd80</guid>
      <category>machine-learning</category>
      <category>infrastructure</category>
      <category>llm</category>
      <category>data-repositories</category>
      <category>research</category>
      <pubDate>Thu, 28 Sep 2023 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Persistent Identifiers: Addressing the challenges of global adoption</title>
      <link>https://coar-repositories.org/news-updates/persistent-identifiers-addressing-the-challenges-of-global-adoption/</link>
      <description>The aim of this blog post is to raise awareness about certain issues related to the adoption of persistent identifiers (PIDs), which especially impact developing countries and to propose an alterna…</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">7ff146a3905630ba</guid>
      <category>doi</category>
      <category>resources</category>
      <category>persistent-identifiers</category>
      <category>scholarly</category>
      <category>adoption</category>
      <pubDate>Thu, 28 Sep 2023 13:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Beyond the Hype: How Ontologies Can Unlock the Potential of Large Language Models for Business This post delves into the transformative capabilities of Large Language Models, such as GPT-4, and… | Tony Seale | 166 comments</title>
      <link>https://www.linkedin.com/posts/tonyseale_beyond-the-hype-how-ontologies-can-unlock-activity-7113432261051469827-queZ?utm_source=share&amp;utm_medium=member_android</link>
      <description>Beyond the Hype: How Ontologies Can Unlock the Potential of Large Language Models for Business

 This post delves into the transformative capabilities of Large Language Models, such as GPT-4, and examines the crucial role that the structured intelligence of ontologies can play in deploying LLMs in production environments.

 🔵 The Power of LLMs:
 LLMs have remarkable capabilities; they can craft letters, analyse data, orchestrate workflows, generate code, and much more. Companies such as Google, App</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">8c9bdc2893986903</guid>
      <category>ontologies</category>
      <category>ai</category>
      <category>business</category>
      <category>language-models</category>
      <category>data-analysis</category>
      <pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2023 08:00:12 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>unRLHF - Efficiently undoing LLM safeguards — LessWrong</title>
      <link>https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/3eqHYxfWb5x4Qfz8C/unrlhf-efficiently-undoing-llm-safeguards?s=09</link>
      <description>Produced as part of the SERI ML Alignment Theory Scholars Program - Summer 2023 Cohort, under the mentorship of Jeffrey Ladish. I'm grateful to Palis…</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">89da40108d376034</guid>
      <category>alignment</category>
      <category>ai</category>
      <category>governance</category>
      <category>safety</category>
      <category>rlhf</category>
      <pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2023 19:58:08 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>What I learned getting acquired by Google</title>
      <link>https://shreyans.org/google</link>
      <description>Our 10 person startup gets acquired by Google, we rebuild our product the Google way, and begin to understand that amazing things are possible at Google, if you play the Google game</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">caa9fbe62f32ab7b</guid>
      <category>startup</category>
      <category>ai</category>
      <category>acquisition</category>
      <category>education</category>
      <category>google</category>
      <pubDate>Thu, 09 Nov 2023 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Deciphering the data deluge: how large language models are transforming scientific data curation</title>
      <link>https://www.ebi.ac.uk/about/news/technology-and-innovation/deciphering-the-data-deluge-how-large-language-models-are-transforming-scientific-data-curation/</link>
      <description>Large language models are changing the way we carry out scientific data curation, annotation, and research, setting the stage for a more efficient understanding of scientific literature</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">a1843d5205530871</guid>
      <category>large-language-models</category>
      <category>data-curation</category>
      <category>ai</category>
      <category>annotation</category>
      <category>bioinformatics</category>
      <pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2023 10:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Data-centric AI</title>
      <link>https://theodi.org/insights/projects/data-centric-ai/</link>
      <description>Discover how the ODI's work on data-centric AI will add to the safety of existing and future applications of AI.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">bf7d00185bbc0785</guid>
      <category>data-centric</category>
      <pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2023 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Speed up PostgreSQL® pgvector queries with indexes</title>
      <link>https://aiven.io/developer/postgresql-pgvector-indexes</link>
      <description>Learn the theory and the details of how to speed up PostgreSQL® pgvector queries using indexes IVFFlat, HNSW and traditional indexes</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">ed6fe0ce8a879cf7</guid>
      <category>pgvector</category>
      <category>ai</category>
      <category>postgresql</category>
      <category>data</category>
      <category>indexes</category>
      <pubDate>Fri, 08 Mar 2024 09:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Ability to iterate on SQL queries with follow-up prompts · Issue #6 · datasette/datasette-query-assistant</title>
      <link>https://github.com/datasette/datasette-query-assistant/issues/6</link>
      <description>I ran this: For llm_prices calculate for each model the price if I have 10000 input tokens and 500 output tokens And got this: Now I want to send a follow-up prompt saying "return cost in cents"</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">a350a589f502fc61</guid>
      <category>sql</category>
      <pubDate>Thu, 28 Mar 2024 13:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Custom GPT (GPTs) seems to have a misconception about Web Browsing</title>
      <link>https://community.openai.com/t/custom-gpt-gpts-seems-to-have-a-misconception-about-web-browsing/738323/4</link>
      <description>The above is an incorrect characterization of the browsing resources available within ChatGPT.  The AI can open direct links; its ability to repeat contents back from what is returned by its tools is just highly curtailed.  ## browser  You have the tool `browser`. Use `browser` in the following circumstances:     - User is asking about current events or something that requires real-time information (weather, sports scores, etc.)     - User is asking about some term you are totally unfamiliar wit</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">fa345f478a274433</guid>
      <category>gpt</category>
      <pubDate>Tue, 07 May 2024 14:26:55 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Promptframes: Evolving the Wireframe for the Age of AI</title>
      <link>https://www.nngroup.com/articles/promptframes/</link>
      <description>Promptframes enhance wireframes with prompt writing and generative AI, boosting content fidelity and speeding up user testing. No more lorem ipsum.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">5a453622b0920d2d</guid>
      <category>promptframes</category>
      <category>generative-ai</category>
      <category>ux-design</category>
      <category>wireframe</category>
      <category>placeholder-content</category>
      <pubDate>Fri, 17 May 2024 14:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>MLOps: experiment tracking and monitoring in production · Issue #12 · Helmholtz-AI-Matter/HAICON24-unconference</title>
      <link>https://github.com/Helmholtz-AI-Matter/HAICON24-unconference/issues/12</link>
      <description>Title MLOps: experiment tracking and monitoring in production Description As the field of machine learning advances, managing and monitoring intelligent models in production, also known as machine ...</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">7fced8942085528d</guid>
      <category>production</category>
      <category>mlops</category>
      <category>monitoring</category>
      <category>ai</category>
      <category>experiment-tracking</category>
      <pubDate>Tue, 11 Jun 2024 15:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Why test-driven development and pair programming are perfect companions for GitHub Copilot</title>
      <link>https://www.thoughtworks.com/en-de/insights/blog/generative-ai/tdd-and-pair-programming-the-perfect-companions-for-copilot</link>
      <description>Discover how test-driven development and pair programming can augment software developers' use of GitHub Copilot.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">dc0a32148a29d4bc</guid>
      <category>pair-programming</category>
      <category>agile</category>
      <category>github-copilot</category>
      <category>test-driven-development</category>
      <category>software-engineering</category>
      <pubDate>Mon, 08 Jul 2024 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>A publishing platform that places code front and centre</title>
      <link>https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-02577-1</link>
      <description>Curvenote creates interactive publications based on digital-coding notebooks and aims to increase the transparency and reproducibility of data science.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">f19fc74517d78cf3</guid>
      <category>code</category>
      <category>transparency</category>
      <category>reproducibility</category>
      <category>publishing</category>
      <category>data-science</category>
      <pubDate>Wed, 07 Aug 2024 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>UX for Agents, Part 3: Spreadsheet, Generative, and Collaborative UI/UX</title>
      <link>https://blog.langchain.com/ux-for-agents-part-3/</link>
      <description>Learn about spreadsheet UX for batch agent workloads, Generative UI, and collaborative UX with agents.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">393216cb409a97b3</guid>
      <category>ux</category>
      <category>collaborative</category>
      <category>agents</category>
      <category>generative</category>
      <category>spreadsheet</category>
      <pubDate>Sat, 10 Aug 2024 14:00:36 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>meta-llama/Prompt-Guard-86M · Hugging Face</title>
      <link>https://huggingface.co/meta-llama/Prompt-Guard-86M</link>
      <description>We’re on a journey to advance and democratize artificial intelligence through open source and open science.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">a01d82997254f35b</guid>
      <category>text-classification</category>
      <category>meta-llama</category>
      <category>pytorch</category>
      <category>llama</category>
      <category>hugging-face</category>
      <pubDate>Fri, 06 Dec 2024 16:49:01 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>ml-ops.org</title>
      <link>https://ml-ops.org/</link>
      <description>Machine Learning Operations</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">3d86ab0b8a8486ba</guid>
      <category>automation</category>
      <category>ml-ops</category>
      <category>machine-learning</category>
      <category>software</category>
      <category>development</category>
      <pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2025 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>What If We Made Advertising Illegal?</title>
      <link>https://simone.org/advertising/</link>
      <description>What if we banned all advertising? Not regulate it—abolish it. This proposal would transform manipulation machines, and maybe save democracy itself. A thought experiment worth considering.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">c8fe74c77648fee8</guid>
      <category>advertising</category>
      <category>regulation</category>
      <category>politics</category>
      <category>media</category>
      <category>democracy</category>
      <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2025 16:22:48 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Our experiment with GitHub Copilot: A practical guide for development teams</title>
      <link>https://www.thoughtworks.com/insights/blog/generative-ai/experiment-github-copilot-practical-guide</link>
      <description>How helpful is GitHub Copilot, really? We did an experiment to find out.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">910fba0301ad63e6</guid>
      <category>github</category>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2025 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>As an Experienced LLM User, I Actually Don't Use Generative LLMs Often</title>
      <link>https://minimaxir.com/2025/05/llm-use/</link>
      <description>But for what I do use LLMs for, it’s invaluable.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">58e184ebb50707a8</guid>
      <category>llm</category>
      <pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2025 10:15:00 -0700</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Publisher Speak Keynote</title>
      <link>https://mulvany.net/talks/2025-05-publisherspeak-keynote-london/annotated_talk.html</link>
      <description>Slides and annotations from Ian Mulvany's keynote at Publisher Speak, May 2025.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">95df35b949e5c2e5</guid>
      <category>ai</category>
      <category>future</category>
      <category>keynote</category>
      <category>science</category>
      <category>publishing</category>
      <pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2025 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Firefox Browser Architecture</title>
      <link>https://mozilla.github.io/firefox-browser-architecture/</link>
      <description>&lt;div&gt;&lt;title&gt;&lt;p&gt;Firefox Browser Architecture&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/title&gt;&lt;body&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;h1 id="firefox-browser-architecture"&gt;Firefox Browser Architecture&lt;/h1&gt;&lt;h2 id="mission"&gt;Mission&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;p&gt;Change Mozilla. Investigate big technical challenges and produce engineering programs to address them.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;h2 id="our-conclusions"&gt;Our Conclusions&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is a list of our findings that we’re reasonably happy with so far.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;Documenting our output looks at how we’re going to communicate with the rest of Mozilla.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Extracting Necko considers whether it’s feasible or worthwhile to extract Necko — Gecko’s C++ networking library — for use as a standalone component.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Problems with XUL aims to list the different kinds of problems that exist with XUL.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;XBL and Web Components compares some old Mozilla technology (XBL) with modern Web Components.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Problems with XBL aims to list the different kinds of problems that exist with XBL.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Architecture Reviews are healthy and we proposed a process for healthy reviews.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;XBL Design Review packet is the packet that we prepared for the architectural design review for XBL removal.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Roadmap Review: Sync and Storage establishes that storage and syncing of user data is a pillar of the Firefox ecosystem, warranting holistic and long-term attention, and outlines where we’d like to end up and some ideas for how to get there.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;JavaScript Type Safety Systems are some conclusions of an investigation into the use of JavaScript type safety systems.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Firefox Data Stores Documentation documents the existing data stores across all current Firefox platforms.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Fluent in Prefs Design Review describes the lightweight design review for Fluent in Prefs.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;A brief analysis of JSON file-backed storage outlines some of the pros and cons of using a flat file (particularly via JSONFile.jsm) to store data in Firefox.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Process Isolation in Firefox is a WIP evaluation of how far we can push process isolation to improve security and stability.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;IPC Security Models and Status is an audit of our current IPC status.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;XUL Overlay Removal Review Packet is the packet that we prepared for the architectural design review for XUL Overlay removal.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Design Review: Key-Value Storage proposes the introduction of a fast, cross-platform key-value store for Mozilla products.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;XULStore Using rkv – Proof of Concept describes a proof-of-concept implementation of XULStore that uses rkv.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;LMDB vs. LevelDB compares the Lightning Memory-mapped Database (LMDB) key-value storage engine to the LevelDB key-value storage engine.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;h2 id="posts"&gt;Posts&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;p&gt;We typically send our newsletters to firefox-dev.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;Browser Architecture Update. See also mailing-list-post.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Browser Architecture Newsletter #2. See also mailing-list-post.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Browser Architecture Newsletter #3. See also mailing-list-post.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Browser Architecture Newsletter #4. See also mailing-list-post.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Browser Architecture Newsletter #5. See also mailing-list-post.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;h2 id="explorations-and-experiments"&gt;Explorations and Experiments&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;p&gt;To support our conclusions we occasionally perform explorations and experiments. The first exploration is designed to support the notion that we can create a sync and storage layer in Rust that we can deploy to Desktop, Android and iOS.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;Deploying a Rust library on iOS. A short tutorial describing how to build and deploy a Rust library for use inside an iOS app.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Deploying a Rust library on Android. A short tutorial describing how to build and deploy a Rust library for use inside an Android app.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;h1 id="community-participation-guidelines"&gt;Community Participation Guidelines&lt;/h1&gt;&lt;p&gt;This repository is governed by Mozilla’s code of conduct and etiquette guidelines. For more details, please read the Mozilla Community Participation Guidelines.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;h2 id="how-to-report"&gt;How to Report&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;p&gt;For more information on how to report violations of the Community Participation Guidelines, please read our ‘How to Report’ page.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/body&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">ca1378bcb19325a1</guid>
      <category>firefox</category>
      <category>data-storage</category>
      <category>mozilla</category>
      <category>networking</category>
      <category>architecture</category>
      <pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2025 18:36:16 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Learning your way around the code</title>
      <link>https://www.chromium.org/developers/learning-your-way-around-the-code/</link>
      <description>&lt;div&gt;&lt;title&gt;&lt;p&gt;Learning your way around the code&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/title&gt;&lt;body&gt;&lt;header&gt;&lt;h2&gt;The Chromium Projects&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;/header&gt;&lt;div id="main-wrapper"&gt;&lt;main&gt;&lt;div&gt;For Developers &amp;gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;h1&gt;Learning your way around the code&lt;/h1&gt;&lt;p&gt;There is lots to learn about the Chromium code base, both at a macro level (how the processes are laid out, how IPC works, the flow of a URL load), and at a micro level (code idioms such as smart pointer usage guidelines, message loops, common threads, threading guidelines, string usage guidelines, etc).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;h2 id="learning-to-do-things-the-chromium-way" tabindex="-1"&gt;Learning to do things the Chromium way&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;p&gt;Coding style: If you’ve coded elsewhere, the chrome guidelines (and code reviewer comments) might seem strict. For example, extra spaces at the end of lines are forbidden. All comments should be legitimate English sentences, including the ending period. There is a strict 80 column limit (with exceptions for things that can’t possibly be broken up).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;h2 id="a-personal-learning-plan" tabindex="-1"&gt;A personal learning plan&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;p&gt;Eventually you’ll have your build setup, and want to get to work. In a perfect world, we would have all the time we needed to read every line of code and understand it before writing our first line of code. In practice, this is impossible. So, what can we do? We suggest you develop your own plan for learning what you need, here are some suggested starting points. Fortunately for us, Chromium has some top quality design docs. While these can go a bit stale (for instance, when following along, you may find references to files that have been moved or renamed or refactored out of existence), it is awesome to be able to comprehend the way that the code fits together overall.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;ol&gt;&lt;li&gt;Read the most important developer design docsMulti-process architectureDisplaying a web page in ChromeInter-process communicationThreadingGetting around the Chrome source code&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;See if your group has any docs; there may be some docs that people working on the same code will care about while others don’t need to know as much detail.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Learn some of the code idioms:Important abstractions and data structuresSmart pointer guidelinesChromium String usage&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Later, as time permits, skim all the design docs, reading where it seems relevant.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Get good at using code search (or your code browsing tool of choice)&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Learn who to ask how the code works (how to find somebody who knows how the code works)&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Debug into the code you need to learn, with a debugger if you can, or log statements and grepping if you cannot.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Look at the differences in what you need to understand and you currently understand. For instance, if your group does a lot of GUI programming, then maybe you can invest time in learning GTK+, Win32, or Cocoa programming.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;&lt;h2 id="blink" tabindex="-1"&gt;Blink&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;p&gt;Sometimes to make a fix or add a feature to Chromium, the right place to put it is in Blink (formerly WebKit). There is a (2012) “How Webkit works” slide deck. While Blink has forked, some of this may still be relevant.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There is also a slide that explains a basic workflow for WebKit development for people who are already familiar with Chromium development.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/main&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/body&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">b2479715b803e167</guid>
      <category>chromium</category>
      <pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2025 18:36:17 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Raz Blog</title>
      <link>https://raz.sh/blog/2025-05-02_a_critical_look_at_mcp</link>
      <description>&lt;div&gt;&lt;title&gt;&lt;p&gt;A Critical Look at MCP- Raz Blog&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/title&gt;&lt;body&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Raz Blog&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;|&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Rasmus Holm - Fri, 02 May 2025&lt;/p&gt;&lt;h1&gt;A Critical Look at MCP&lt;/h1&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;"MCP is an open protocol that standardizes how applications provide context to LLMs. Think of MCP like a USB-C port for AI applications. Just as USB-C provides a standardized way to connect your devices to various peripherals and accessories, MCP provides a standardized way to connect AI models to different data sources and tools."&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;― Anthropic&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;h2 id="toc_0"&gt;TL;DR&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;p&gt;I would like for this to turn out to be a skill issue on my part, and hope that I'm missing something.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;During the past month,MCP (Model Context Protocol), which would enable LLMs to become agents and interact with the world, has really been blowing up. The idea is straightforward: let's standardize an API for LLM/Agents to interact with the world and how to inform the LLM/Agent about it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Things are moving really fast, and IBM recently released their own "orthogonal standard" to MCP called Agent Communication Protocol (ACP), followed closely by Google announcing Agent2Agent (A2A).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;MCP Servers and Clients are being built and published daily, and can be found at sites like mcp.so and pulsemcp.com.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;However, I'm astonished by the apparent lack of mature engineering practices. All the major players spend billions of dollars on training and tuning their models, only to turn around and, from what I can tell, have an interns write the documentation, providing subpar SDKs and very little in terms of implementation guidance.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This trend seems to have continued with MCP, resulting in some very strange design decisions, poor documentation, and an even worse specification of the actual protocols.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;My conclusion is that the whole suggested setup for HTTP transport (SSE+HTTP and Streamable HTTP) should be thrown out and replaced with something that mimics stdio... Websockets.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;h2 id="toc_1"&gt;Background&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;p&gt;About three weeks ago, I decided to jump on the MCP bandwagon to give it a try and see how it could be used in our own environment. I'm very much a person who wants to understand how things actually work under the hood before I start using abstractions. Here we have a new protocol that works over different transports — how exciting!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Anthropic is the company behind the MCP standardization effort, and MCP seems to be one of the major reasons Anthropic's CEO is thinking that most code will be written by LLMs within a year or so. The bet on coding tooling in particular seems to have been the guiding principle of the standardization effort based on how it feels to work with it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;h2 id="toc_2"&gt;Protocol&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;p&gt;Simply put, it is a JSON-RPC protocol with predefined methods/endpoints designed to be used in conjunction with an LLM. This is not really the focus of this post, but there are things to be criticized about the protocol itself.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;h2 id="toc_3"&gt;Transport&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;p&gt;As with many applications post-2005, they're supposedly "local first" (ironically), and this seems to be very much the case with MCP. Looking at the transport protocol, you get a sense of where they're coming from—if their intention is to build LLM tools for coding on your laptop. They're probably looking at local IDEs (or more realistically, Cursor or Windsurf) and how to have the LLM interact with the local file system, databases, editors, language servers, and so on.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There are essentially two main transport protocols (or three):&lt;/p&gt;&lt;ol&gt;&lt;li&gt;stdio&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;"Something over HTTP, the web seems to be a thing we probably should support."&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;&lt;h3 id="toc_4"&gt;Stdio&lt;/h3&gt;&lt;p&gt;Using stdio essentially means starting a local MCP Server, hooking up stdout and stdin pipes from the server to the client, and starting to send JSON and using stderr for logging. It kind of breaks the Unix/Linux piping paradigm using these streams for bidirectional communication. When bidirectional communication is needed, we usually reach for a socket, unix socket or even a net socket.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;However, it is straightforward and easy to reason about, works out of the box in all OSes, no need to deal with sockets, and so on. So even if there is a critique to be made, I get it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;h3 id="toc_5"&gt;HTTP+SSE / Streamable HTTP&lt;/h3&gt;&lt;p&gt;The HTTP transport is another story. There are two versions of the same mistake: HTTP+SSE (Server-Sent Events) transport, which is being replaced by "Streamable HTTP" (a made-up term) that uses REST semantics with SSE. But with a whole lot of extra confusion and corner cases on top.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It can be summarized as: "Since we like SSE for LLM streaming, we're not using WebSockets. Instead, we're effectively implementing WebSockets on top of SSE and calling it 'Streamable HTTP' to make people think it's an accepted/known way of doing things."&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;They discuss the problems with WebSockets (and the reason for Streamable HTTP) in this PR: modelcontextprotocol/pull/206, making some very strange contortions and straw-man arguments to not use WebSockets. At least one other person in the thread seems to agree with me: modelcontextprotocol/pull/206#issuecomment-2766559523.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;h2 id="toc_6"&gt;A Descent into Madness&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;p&gt;I set out to implement an MCP server in Golang. There isn't an official Go SDK, and I wanted to understand the protocol. This turned out to be a mistake for mental health...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;h3 id="toc_7"&gt;The Warning Signs...&lt;/h3&gt;&lt;p&gt;Looking at https://modelcontextprotocol.io, the documentation is poorly written (all LLM vendors seem to have an internal competition in writing confusing documentation). The specification glosses over or ignores important aspects of the protocol and provides no examples of conversation flow. In fact, it seems the entire website is not meant for reading the standard; instead, it pushes you toward tutorials on how to implement their SDKs.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;All example servers are implemented in Python or JavaScript, with the intention that you download and run them locally using stdio. Python and JavaScript are probably one of the worst choices of languages for something you want to work on anyone else's computer. The authors seem to realize this since all examples are available as Docker containers.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Be honest... when was the last time you ran pip install and didn't end up in dependency hell?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Am I being pretentious/judgmental in thinking that people in AI only really know Python, and the "well, it works on my computer" approach is still considered acceptable? This should be glaringly obvious to anyone that ever tried to run anything from Hugging Face.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you want to run MCP locally, wouldn't you prefer a portable language like Rust, Go, or even VM-based options such as Java or C#?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;h3 id="toc_8"&gt;The Problem&lt;/h3&gt;&lt;p&gt;When I started implementing the protocol, I immediately felt I had to reverse-engineer it. Important aspects of the SSE portion are missing from the documentation, and no one seemed to have implemented the "Streamable HTTP" yet; not even their own tooling like npx @modelcontextprotocol/inspector@latest. (To be fair, it might have been a skill issue on my part, pulling the wrong version, since it was available when I checked again a few weeks later. You can also find version at inspect.mcp.garden, which might be more convenient.)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Once you grasp the architecture, you quickly realize that implementing an MCP server, or a client, could be a huge effort. The problem is that the SSE/Streamable HTTP implementations are trying to act like sockets, emulating stdio, without being one and is trying to do Everything Everywhere All at Once.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;h4 id="toc_9"&gt;HTTP+SSE Mode&lt;/h4&gt;&lt;p&gt;modelcontextprotocol.io/specification/2024-11-05/basic/transports&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In HTTP+SSE mode, to achieve full duplex, the client sets up an SSE session to (e.g.) GET /sse for reads. The first read provides a URL where writes can be posted. The client then proceeds to use the given endpoint for writes, e.g., a request to POST /a-endpoint?session-id=1234. The server returns a 202 Accepted with no body, and the response to the request should be read from the pre-existing open SSE connection on /sse.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;h4 id="toc_10"&gt;"Streamable HTTP" Mode&lt;/h4&gt;&lt;p&gt;modelcontextprotocol.io/specification/2025-03-26/basic/transports&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In "Streamable HTTP" mode, they realized that instead of providing a new endpoint in the first request, they could use an HTTP header for the session ID and REST semantics for the endpoint. For example, GET or POST /mcp can open an SSE session and return an mcp-session-id=1234 HTTP header. To send data, the client does requests to POST /mcp and adds the HTTP header mcp-session-id=1234. The response may:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;Open a new SSE stream and post the reply&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Return a 200 with the reply in the body&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Return a 202, indicating the reply will be written to one of any pre-existing SSE stream&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;p&gt;To end the session, the client may or may not send a DELETE /mcp with the header mcp-session-id=1234. The server must maintain state with no clear way to know when the client has abandoned the session unless the client nicely ends it properly.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;h3 id="toc_11"&gt;What Are the Implications for SSE Mode?&lt;/h3&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is such a problematic design that I don't know where to begin.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;While some key features of SSE mode are undocumented, it's fairly straightforward once you reverse-engineer it. But this still puts a huge and unnecessary burden on the server implementation, which needs to "join" connections across calls. Doing anything real will pretty much force you to use a message queue to reply to any request. E.g., running the server in any redundant way will mean that the SSE stream might come from one server to the client, while the requests are being sent to a completely different server.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;h3 id="toc_12"&gt;What Are the Implications for "Streamable HTTP"?&lt;/h3&gt;&lt;p&gt;The Streamable HTTP approach takes it to another level with a host of security concerns and obfuscated control flow. While keeping all the bad parts from SSE mode, Streamable HTTP seems to be more of a super-set of confusion over SSE mode.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In terms of implementation I have just scratched the surface, but from what I understand in the docs...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;A new session can be created in 3 ways:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;An empty GET request&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;An empty POST request&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;A POST request containing the RPC call&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;p&gt;An SSE can be opened in 4 different ways:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;A GET to initialize&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;A GET to join an earlier session&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;A POST to initialize a session&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;A POST that contains a request and answers with an SSE&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;p&gt;A request may be answered in any of 3 different ways:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;As an HTTP response to a POST with an RPC call&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;As an event in an SSE that was opened as a response to the POST RPC call&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;As an event to any SSE that was opened at some earlier point&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;h4 id="toc_13"&gt;General implications&lt;/h4&gt;&lt;p&gt;With its multiple ways to initiate sessions, open SSE connections, and respond to requests, this introduces significant complexity. This complexity has several general implications:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;Increased Complexity: The multiple ways of doing the same thing (session creation, SSE opening, response delivery) increases the cognitive load for developers. It becomes harder to understand, debug, and maintain code.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Potential for Inconsistency: With various ways to achieve the same outcome, there's a higher risk of inconsistent implementations across different servers and clients. This can lead to interoperability issues and unexpected behavior. Clients and servers just implementing the parts they feel are necessary.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Scalability Concerns: While Streamable HTTP aims to improve efficiency, with a charitable interpretation, the complexity will introduce scalability bottlenecks that need to be overcome. Servers might struggle to manage the diverse connection states, response mechanisms over a large number of machines.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;h4 id="toc_14"&gt;Security Implications&lt;/h4&gt;&lt;p&gt;The "flexibility" of Streamable HTTP introduces several security concerns, and here are just a few of them:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;State Management Vulnerabilities: Managing session state across different connection types (HTTP and SSE) is complex. This could lead to vulnerabilities such as session hijacking, replay attacks or DoS attacks by creating state on the server that needs to be managed and kept around waiting for a session to be resumed.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Increased Attack Surface: The multiple entry points for session creation and SSE connections expand the attack surface. Each entry point represents a potential vulnerability that an attacker could exploit.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Confusion and Obfuscation: The variety of ways to initiate sessions and deliver responses can be used to obfuscate malicious activity.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;h3 id="toc_15"&gt;Authorization&lt;/h3&gt;&lt;p&gt;The latest version of the protocol contains some very opinionated requirements on how authorization should be done.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;modelcontextprotocol.io/specification/2025-03-26/basic/authorization&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;Implementations using an HTTP-based transport SHOULD conform to this specification.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Implementations using an STDIO transport SHOULD NOT follow this specification, and instead retrieve credentials from the environment.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm reading it like, for stdio, do whatever. For HTTP, you better fucking jump through these OAuth2 hoops. Why do I need to implement OAuth2 if I'm using HTTP as transport, while an API key is enough for stdio?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;h2 id="toc_16"&gt;What Should Be Done&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't know, just kind of feel sad about it all... It seems like the industry is peeing their pants at the moment ― it feels great now, but it's going to be hard to deal with later.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There is one JSON RPC protocol, and Stdio is clearly preferred as the transport protocol. Then we should try to have the HTTP transport be as much like Stdio as we can make it, and only really deviate if we really, really need to.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;In Stdio, we have Environment Variables, in HTTP we have HTTP Headers&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;In Stdio, we have socket-like behavior with input and output streams, in HTTP we have WebSockets&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's it really. We should be able to accomplish the same thing on WebSockets as we do on Stdio. WebSockets are the appropriate choice for transport over HTTP. We can do away with complex cross-server state management for sessions. We can do away with a multitude of corner-cases and on and on.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Sure some things, like authorization, might be a bit more complicated in some instances (and easier in some); some firewalls out there might block WebSockets; there might be extra overhead for small sessions; it might be harder to resume a broken session. But as they say:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Clients and servers MAY implement additional custom transport mechanisms to suit their specific needs. The protocol is transport-agnostic and can be implemented over any communication channel that supports bidirectional message exchange&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;modelcontextprotocol.io/specification/2025-03-26/basic/transports#custom-transports&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;As an industry, we should optimize for the most common use-cases, not the corner-cases.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;h2 id="toc_17"&gt;Side note: Alternatives and Additions&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;p&gt;As discussed above, there seem to be more protocols emerging. MCP is effectively "a protocol to expose an API to an LLM" (which can create an agent). The more recent protocols from IBM and Google (ACP and A2A) are effectively "protocols to expose an Agent to an LLM" (which can create an agent of agents).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Looking through the A2A specification, it seems like there's a very limited need for them. Even though they claim to be orthogonal, most things in A2A could be accomplished with MCP as is or with small additions.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It boils down to two entire protocols that could just as well be tools in an MCP server. Even IBM seems to acknowledge that their protocol isn't really necessary:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;"Agents can be viewed as MCP resources and further invoked as MCP tools. Such a view of ACP agents allows MCP clients to discover and run ACP agents..."&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;― IBM / agentcommunicationprotocol.dev/ecosystem/mcp-adapter&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;My initial feeling is that the ACP protocol mostly seems like an attempt for IBM to promote their " agent-building-tool" BeeAI&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;What both of the A** protocols bring to the table is a sane transport layer and a way to discover agents.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;h2 id="toc_18"&gt;Edits&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;p&gt;2025-05-12: This post attracted some attention at hacker news and reddit. The discussions can be read at:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43945993&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1kg6zws/a_critical_look_at_mcp/&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/body&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">f6365309c5b8932b</guid>
      <category>mcp</category>
      <category>llm</category>
      <category>protocol</category>
      <category>engineering</category>
      <category>api</category>
      <pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2025 18:36:17 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Training</title>
      <link>https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer-library/training/</link>
      <description>&lt;div&gt;&lt;title&gt;&lt;p&gt;Training&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/title&gt;&lt;body&gt;&lt;header&gt;&lt;h2&gt;The Chromium Projects&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;/header&gt;&lt;div id="main-wrapper"&gt;&lt;main&gt;&lt;div&gt;ChromiumOS &amp;gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;h1&gt;Training&lt;/h1&gt;&lt;h2 id="codelabs" tabindex="-1"&gt;Codelabs&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;Autotest client tests&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Debugging crashes&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Creating and deploying ChromiumOS dynamic test suites&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Server Side test for ChromiumOS autotest codelab&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;h2 id="tech-talks" tabindex="-1"&gt;Tech Talks&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;table&gt;&lt;thead&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;th scope="col"&gt;Topic&lt;/th&gt;&lt;th scope="col"&gt;Video&lt;/th&gt;&lt;th scope="col"&gt;Slides&lt;/th&gt;&lt;th scope="col"&gt;Notes&lt;/th&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/thead&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;Callbacks in Chromium&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;Video&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;Slides&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;Discusses the pointers and functions you can provide to base::Bind[Once/Repeating](), and why you might choose one over the other in certain situations. Discusses design patterns and object lifetimes you should be thinking about.&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;ChromiumOS Fast Boot&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;Video&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;None available&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;A description of the ChromiumOS fast bootup design.&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;ChromiumOS Security&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;Video&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;None available&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;A description of the ChromiumOS security philosophy.&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;ChromiumOS &amp;amp; Open Source&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;Video&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;None available&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;A description of the ChromiumOS open source development model.&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;ChromeOS Software Bluetooth 101&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;go/chromeos-software-bt-101&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;go/chromeos-software-bt-101-slides&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;Improve your familiarity with the Bluetooth technology, understand the underlying effects of using Bluetooth APIs, and develop debug intuition.&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;WebUI Walkthrough&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;Video&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;Slides&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;A walkthrough about the complexities of creating Web UI inside Chromium, including its build process. Information about Jelly/Jellybean is also given.&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;What is Google ChromeOS?&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;Video&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;None available&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;A high-level description of the ChromeOS product.&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/main&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/body&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">ea99ef0f8917d602</guid>
      <category>chromium</category>
      <pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2025 18:36:17 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Defining, Measuring, and Managing Technical Debt</title>
      <link>https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10109339</link>
      <description>Ward Cunningham introduced the metaphor underlying the term technical debt in a 1992 experience report, where he described how his company incrementally extended a piece of financial software:</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">302abc542c6e4aeb</guid>
      <category>measurement</category>
      <category>technical-debt</category>
      <category>software</category>
      <category>engineering</category>
      <category>management</category>
      <pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2025 18:36:17 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Anthropic Economic Index: AI's impact on software development</title>
      <link>https://www.anthropic.com/research/impact-software-development</link>
      <description>Data on how software developers are using Claude</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">5cdc927c52207247</guid>
      <category>automation</category>
      <category>coding</category>
      <category>economy</category>
      <category>ai</category>
      <category>software</category>
      <pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2025 18:36:17 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>GPT-4.1 Prompting Guide</title>
      <link>https://cookbook.openai.com/examples/gpt4-1_prompting_guide</link>
      <description>The GPT-4.1 family of models represents a significant step forward from GPT-4o in capabilities across coding, instruction following, and...</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">02b963dd9b8116a0</guid>
      <category>modeling</category>
      <category>ai</category>
      <category>development</category>
      <category>gpt-41</category>
      <category>prompting</category>
      <pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2025 18:36:19 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Google Gemini has the worst LLM API | Hacker News</title>
      <link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43882905</link>
      <description>&lt;div&gt;&lt;title&gt;&lt;p&gt;Google Gemini has the worst LLM API | Hacker News&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/title&gt;&lt;body&gt;&lt;table bgcolor="#f6f6ef" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" id="hnmain" width="85%"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td bgcolor="#ff6600"&gt;&lt;table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;login&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="bigbox"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr id="43882905"&gt;&lt;td&gt;Google Gemini has the worst LLM API (venki.dev)&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;203 points by indigodaddy 7 months ago | hide | past | favorite | 188 comments&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr id="43883345"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;simonw 7 months ago | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I still don't really understand what Vertex AI is.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you can ignore Vertex most of the complaints here are solved - the non-Vertex APIs have easy to use API keys, a great debugging tool (https://aistudio.google.com), a well documented HTTP API and good client libraries too.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I actually use their HTTP API directly (with the ijson streaming JSON parser for Python) and the code is reasonably straight-forward: https://github.com/simonw/llm-gemini/blob/61a97766ff0873936a...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You have to be very careful when searching (using Google, haha) that you don't accidentally end up in the Vertext documentation though.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Worth noting that Gemini does now have an OpenAI-compatible API endpoint which makes it very easy to switch apps that use an OpenAI client library over to backing against Gemini instead: https://ai.google.dev/gemini-api/docs/openai&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Anthropic have the same feature now as well: https://docs.anthropic.com/en/api/openai-sdk&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885771"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;anaisbetts 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;It's a way for you to have your AI billing under the same invoice as all of your other cloud purchases. If you're a startup this is a dumb feature, if you work at a $ENTERPRISE_BIGCO, it just saved you 6mo+ of fighting with IT / Legal / various annoying middle managers&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893391"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;blitzar 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; $ENTERPRISE_BIGCO, it just saved you 6mo+ of fighting with IT / Legal / various annoying middle managers&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;What's the point of working at $ENTERPRISE_BIGCO if you don't fight with IT &amp;amp; Legal &amp;amp; various annoying middle managers.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Anyway let's table this for now and circle back later after we take care of some of the low hanging fruit. Keep me in the loop and I will do a deep dive into how we can think outside the box and turn this into a win-win. I will touch base with you when I have all my ducks in a row and we can hop on a call.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898106"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;kridsdale1 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I work AT Google and 99% of my conversations must have been the training set for your paragraph.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43902915"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;blitzar 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;If they replaced the leet code interviews with department wide meetings and email chain take home tasks I could make hay and really shine with a series of No nothing from this side, FYI's and back burners.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Google sounds like a fun place to work, run it up the flagpole and see if you can move the needle before the next hard stop for me.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885824"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;progbits 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's also useful in a startup, I just start using it with zero effort.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For external service I have to get a unique card for billing and then upload monthly receipts, or ask our ops to get it setup and then wait for weeks as the sales/legal/compliance teams on each side talk to each other.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887092"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;NoahZuniga 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;This is not true??? The AI studio surface is also billed on a per project basis?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886349"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bn-l 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;ah! thank you. I was also struggling with where vertex fitted.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883824"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tzury 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Vertex by example:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;pre&gt;creds = service_account.Credentials.from_service_account_file( SA_FILE, scopes=[ "https://www.googleapis.com/auth/cloud-platform", "https://www.googleapis.com/auth/generative-language", ] ) google.genai.Client( vertexai=True, project=PROJECT_ID, location=LOCATION, http_options={"api_version": "v1beta1"}, credentials=sa_creds, )&lt;/pre&gt;&lt;p&gt;That `vertexai=True` does the trick - you can use same code without this option, and you will not be using "Vertex".&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Also, note, with Vertex, I am providing service account rather than API key, which should improve security and performance.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For me, the main aspect of "using Vertex", as in this example is the fact Start AI Cloud Credit ($350K) are only useable under Vertex. That is, one must use this platform to benefit from this generous credit.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Feels like the "Anthos" days for me, when Google now pushing their Enterprise Grade ML Ops platform, but all in all I am grateful for their generosity and the great Gemini model.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883937"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sitefail1 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I don't think a service account vs an API key would improve performance in any meaningful way. I doubt the AI endpoint is authenticating the API key against a central database every request, it will most certainly be cached against a service key in the same AZ or whatever GCP call it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884411"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ivanvanderbyl 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Service account file vs API Key have similar security risks if provided the way you are using them. Google recommends using ADC and it’s actually an org policy recommendation to disable SA files.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884590"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;wanderer2323 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;ADC (Application Default Credentials) is a specification for finding credentials (1. look here 2. look there etc.) not an alternative for credentials. Using ADC one can e.g. find an SA file.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As a replacement for SA files one can have e.g. user accounts using SA impersonation, external identity providers, or run on GCP VM or GKE and use built-in identities.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(ref: https://cloud.google.com/iam/docs/migrate-from-service-accou...)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43956211"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;logankilpatrick 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The startup credits are fully compatible with AI Studio, they are not specific to Vertex.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883613"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;laborcontract 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Google Cloud Console's billing console for Vertex is so poor. I'm trying to figure out how much i spent on which models and I still cannot for the life of me figure it out. I'm assuming the only way to do it is to use the gemini billing assistant chatbot, but that requires me to turn on another api permission.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I still don't understand the distinction between Gemini and Vertex AI apis. It's like Logan K heard the criticisms about the API and helped push to split Gemini from the broader Google API ecosystem but it's only created more confusion, for me at least.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884990"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chrisheecho 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I couldn’t have said it better. My billing friends are working to address some of these concerns along with the Vertex team. We are planning to address this issue. Please stay tuned, we will come back to this thread to announce when we can In fact, if you can DM me (@chrischo_pm on X) with, I would love to learn more if you are interested.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886732"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jeswin 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Can you allow prepaid credits as well please?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888448"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;byefruit 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;100% this. We actually use OpenRouter (and pay their surcharge) with Gemini 2.5 Pro just because we can actually control spend via spent limit on keys (A++ feature) and prepaid credit.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888878"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chrisheecho 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;one step ahead of you ;)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883757"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tyre 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Gemini’s is no better. Their data can be up to 24h stale and you can’t set hard caps on API keys. The best you can do is email notification billing alerts, which they acknowledge can be hours late.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887058"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;__jl__ 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Only problem is that the genai API at https://ai.google.dev is far less reliable and can be problematic for production use cases. Right around the time Gemini 2.0 launched, it was done for days on end without any communication. They are putting a lot of effort into improving it but it's much less reliable than openai, which matters for production. They can also reject your request based on overall system load (not your individual limits), which is very unpredictable. They advertise 2000 requests per minute. When I tried several weeks ago, I couldn't even get 500 per minute.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43956223"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;logankilpatrick 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Pls ping me if you run into any production issues, will raise right away to the team. We have massive at scale products operating on AI Studio, so we are set up to ensure stability.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883386"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mgraczyk 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;OpenAI compatible API is missing important parameters, for example I don't think there is a way to disable flash 2 thinking with it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Vertex AI is for grpc, service auth, and region control (amongst other things). Ensuring data remains in a specific region, allowing you to auth with the instance service account, and slightly better latency and ttft&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883513"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;simonw 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I find Google's service auth SO hard to figure out. I've been meaning to solve deploying to Cloud Run via service with for several years now but it just doesn't fit in my brain well enough for me to make the switch.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884993"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chrisheecho 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;simonw, 'Google's service auth SO hard to figure out' – absolutely hear you. We're taking this feedback on auth complexity seriously. We have a new Vertex express mode in Preview (https://cloud.google.com/vertex-ai/generative-ai/docs/start/... , not ready for primetime yet!) that you can sign up for a free tier and get API Key right away. We are improving the experience, again if you would like to give feedback, please DM me on @chrischo_pm on X.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883688"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mgraczyk 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you're on cloud run it should just work automatically.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For deploying, on GitHub I just use a special service account for CI/CD and put the json payload in an environment secret like an API key. The only extra thing is that you need to copy it to the filesystem for some things to work, usually a file named google_application_credentials.json&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you use cloud build you shouldn't need to do anything&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883868"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;candiddevmike 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;You should consider setting up Workload Identity Federation and authentication to Google Cloud using your GitHub runner OIDC token. Google Cloud will "trust" the token and allow you to impersonate service accounts. No static keys!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884302"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mgraczyk 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Does not work for many Google services, including firebase&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885846"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;progbits 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes it does. We deploy firebase and bunch of other GCP things from github actions and there are zero API keys or JSON credentials anywhere.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Everything is service accounts and workload identity federation, with restrictions such as only letting main branch in specific repo to use it (so no problem with unreviewed PRs getting production access).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Edit: if you have a specific error or issue where this doesn't work for you, and can share the code, I can have a look.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887924"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mgraczyk 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;No thank you, there is zero benefit to migrating and no risk in using credentials the way I do.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;How do you sign a firebase custom auth token with workload identity federation? How about a pre signed storage URL? Off the top of my head I think those were two things that don't work&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898992"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;progbits 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;First, regarding "zero benefit" and "no risk". I disagree. The risk and benefit might be low, and not worth the change for you. But it is absolutely not zero.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You have a JSON key file which you can't know how many people have. The person who created the key, downloaded it and then stored it as github secret - did they download it to /dev/shm? Did some npm/brew install script steal it from their downloads folder? Any of the github repo owners can get hold of it. Depending on whether you use github environments/deployments and have set it up properly, so can anyone with write access to the repo. Do you pin all your dependencies, reusable workflows etc, or can a compromise of someone elses repo steal your secrets?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;With the workload identity auth, there is no key. Each access obtains a short lived token. Only workflows on main branch can get it. Every run will have audit logs, and so will every action taken by that token. Risk of compromise is much lower, but even more importantly, if compromised I'll be able to know exactly when and how, and what malicious actions were taken.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Maybe this is paranoid to you and not worth it. That's fine. But it's not "no risk", and it is worth to me to protect personal data of our users.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;---&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As for your question, first step is just to run https://github.com/google-github-actions/auth with identity provider configured in your GCP project, restricted to your github repo or org.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This will create application default credentials that most GCP tools and libraries will just work with as if when you are running things locally after "gcloud auth login".&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For firebase token you can just run a python script as subsequent step in the github job doing something like https://firebase.google.com/docs/auth/admin/create-custom-to.... For signed storage url this can be done with the gcloud tool: https://cloud.google.com/storage/docs/access-control/signing...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In both cases after running the "google-github-actions/auth" step it will just work with the short-lived credentials that step generated.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883913"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;PantaloonFlames 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;You could post on Reddit asking for help and someone is likely to provide answers, an explanation, probably even some code or bash commands to illustrate.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And even if you don't ask, there are many examples. But I feel ya. The right example to fit your need is hard to find.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883755"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mountainriver 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;GCP auth is terrible in general. This is something aws did well&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883935"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;PantaloonFlames 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't get that. How?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- There are principals. (users, service accounts)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- Each one needs to authenticate, in some way. There are options here. SAML or OIDC or Google Signin for users; other options for service accounts.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- Permissions guard the things you can do in Google cloud.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- There are builtin roles that wrap up sets of permissions.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- you can create your own custom roles.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- attach roles to principals to give them parcels of permissions.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888475"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mgraczyk 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;yeah bro just one more principal bro authenticate each one with SAML or OIDC or Google Signin bro set the permissions for each one make sure your service account has permissions aiplatform.models.get and aiplatform.models.list bro or make a custom role and attach the role to the principle to parcel the permission&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's not complicated in the context of huge enterprise applications, but for most people trying to use Google's LLMs, it's much more confusing than using an API key. The parent commenter is probably using an aws secret key.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And FWIW this is basically what google encourages you to do with firebase (with the admin service account credential as a secret key).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885383"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;arccy 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;GCP auth is actually one of the things it does way better than AWS. it's just that the entire industry has been trained on AWS's bad practices...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883445"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;minimaxir 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;From the linked docs:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; If you want to disable thinking, you can set the reasoning effort to "none".&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For other APIs, you can set the thinking tokens to 0 and that also works.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883478"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mgraczyk 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Wow thanks I did not know&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43956241"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;logankilpatrick 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;We added it to the docs. The downside of the OAI compat endpoint is we have to design the API twice, once for our API, then once through the OAI compat layer which makes it slower sometimes to have certain features, especially if we diverge at all.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43956271"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mgraczyk 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Thanks, yes makes sense.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;BTW, I have noticed that when tested outside GCP, the OpenAI compat endpoint has significantly lower latency for most requests (vs using the genai library). VertexAI is better than both.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Any idea why or if that will change?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884991"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chrisheecho 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;We built the OpenAI Compatible API (https://cloud.google.com/vertex-ai/generative-ai/docs/multim...) layer to help customers that are already using OAI library to test out Gemini easily with basic inference but not as a replacement library for the genai sdk (https://github.com/googleapis/python-genai). We recommend using th genai SDK for working with Gemini.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888534"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mike_hearn 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;So, to be clear, Google only supports Python as a language for accessing your models? Nothing else?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888888"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chrisheecho 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;We have Python/Go in GA.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Java/JS is in preview (not ready for production) and will be GA soon!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889731"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;troupo 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;What about providing an actual API people can call without needing to rely on Google SDKs?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43956247"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;logankilpatrick 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;you can do so with the AI SDK from Vercel, open router, etc or just sending raw http requests&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43956229"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;logankilpatrick 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;This is documented for AI Studio here: https://ai.google.dev/gemini-api/docs/openai#thinking&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883681"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Aeolun 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;When I used the openai compatible stuff my API’s just didn’t work at all. I switched back to direct HTTP calls, which seems to be the only thing that works...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885372"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;franze 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;yeah, 2 days to get Google OAuth flow integrated into an background app/script, 1 day coding for the actual app ...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885878"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jpc0 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Is this vertexAI related or in general, I find googles oauth flow to be extremely well documented and easy to setup...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886922"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jacob019 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I got claude to write me an auth layer using only python http.client and cryptography. One shot no problem, now I can get a token from the service key any time, just have to track expiration. Annoying that they don't follow industry standard though.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885379"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;arccy 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;should have used ai to write the integrations...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885389"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;franze 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;thats with AI&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;as there are so many variations out there the AI gets majorly confused, as a matter of fact, the google oauth part is the one thing that gemini 2.5 pro cant code&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;should be its own benchmark&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885973"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;enneff 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Maybe you should just read the docs and use the examples there. I have used all kinds of GCP services for many years and auth is not remotely complicated imo.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891997"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;shresbm123 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;We support reasoning_effort = none. That will let you disable flash 2 thinking. We will document it better.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883620"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;omneity 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;JSONSchema support on Google's OpenAI-compatible API is very lackluster and limiting. My biggest gripe really.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892121"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;shresbm123 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;yeah we are looking into it&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893035"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;omneity 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Thank you! Adding support for `additionalProperties`[0] (and perhaps `patternProperties` too) would be particularly great!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Happy to provide test cases as well if helpful.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;0: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-fge-json-schema-...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884988"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chrisheecho 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;simonw, good points. The Vertex vs. non-Vertex Gemini API (via AI Studio at aistudio.google.com) could use more clarity.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For folks just wanting to get started quickly with Gemini models without the broader platform capabilities of Google Cloud, AI Studio and its associated APIs are recommended as you noted.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;However, if you anticipate your use case to grow and scale 10-1000x in production, Vertex would be a worthwhile investment.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886625"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;troupo 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Why create two different APIs that are the same, but only subtly different, and have several different SDKs?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888903"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chrisheecho 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think you are talking about generativeai vs. vertexai vs. genai sdk.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And you are watching us evolve overtime to do better.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Couple clarifications 1. Going forward we only recommend using genai SDK 2. Subtle API differences - this is a bit harder to articulate but we are working to improve this. Please dm at @chrischo_pm if you would like to discuss further :)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889707"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;troupo 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;So. Three different SDKs.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;No idea what any of those SDK names mean. But sure enoough searching will bring up all three of them for different combination of search terms, and none of them will point to the "recommend only using &amp;lt;a random name that is indistinguishable form other names&amp;gt;"&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Oh, And some of these SDKs (and docs) do have a way to use this functionality without the SDKs, but not others. Because there are only 4 languages in the world, and everyone should be happy using them.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43894818"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mark_l_watson 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think you can strongly influence which SDK your customers use by keeping the Python, Typescript, and Curl examples in the documentation up to date and uniformly use what you consider the ‘best’ SDK in the examples.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Overall, I think that Google has done a great job recently in productizing access to your models. For a few years I wrote my own utilities to get stuff done, now I do much less coding using Gemini (and less often ChatGPT) because the product offerings do mostly what I want.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;One thing I would like to see Google offer is easier integrated search with LLM generation. The ‘grounding’ examples are OK, but for use in Python I buy a few Perplexity API credits and use that for now. That is the single thing I would most like to see you roll out.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;EDIT: just looked at your latest doc pages, I like the express mode setup with a unified access to regular APIs vs. Vertex.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897399"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chrisheecho 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Thanks! - I like it too :)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883562"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;unknown_user_84 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Indeed. Though the billing dashboard feels like an over engineered April fool's joke compared to Anthropic or OpenAI. And it takes too long to update with usage. I understand they tacked it into GCP, but if they're making those devs work 60 hours a week can we get a nicer, and real time, dashboard out of it at least?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43956259"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;logankilpatrick 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;we will have a dashboard in AI Studio very soon! Then will work to drive down delay.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884138"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;coredog64 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Wait until you see how to check Bedrock usage in AWS.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(While you can certainly try to use CloudWatch, it’s not exact. Your other options are “Wait for the bill” or log all Bedrock invocations to CloudWatch/S3 and aggregate there)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886863"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jacob019 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Except that the OpenAI compatible endpoint isn't actually compatible. Doesn't support string enum values for function calls and throws a confusing error. Vertex at least has better error messages. My solution, just use text completions and emulate the tool call support client side, validate the responses against the schema, and retry on failure. It rarely has to retry and always works the 2nd time even without feedback.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887209"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ashu1461 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;There is also no way to over-write content moderation settings, and half of the responses you generate via open ai endpoint end up being moderated.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887140"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;fzysingularity 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Vertex AI is essentially equivalent to Azure OpenAI - enterprise-ready, with HIPAA/SOC2 compliance and data-privacy guarantees.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;FWIW OpenAI compatibility only gets you so far with Gemini. Gemini’s video/audio capabilities and context caching are unparalleled and you’ll likely need to use their SDKs instead to fully take advantage of them.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883434"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;minimaxir 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Vertex AI is essentially a rebranding of their more enterprise platform on GCP, nothing explicitly "new."&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887218"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ashu1461 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Have to work hard to figure out the difference between&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- Vertex AI&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- AI Studio&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- Gemini&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- Firebase Gen AI&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890289"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;hustwindmaple1 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you are not a paying GCP user, there is really no point to even look at Vertex AI.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Just stick with AI Studio and the free developer AI along with it; you will be much much happier.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885176"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;egamirorrim 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I use Vertex because that's the one that makes enterprise security people happy about how our datas handled.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Do Google use all the AI studio traffic to train etc?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885236"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sunaookami 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Not if you have billing enabled: https://ai.google.dev/gemini-api/docs/pricing&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43956315"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;logankilpatrick 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;This is correct, "When you activate a Cloud Billing account, all use of Gemini API and Google AI Studio is a "Paid Service" with respect to how Google Uses Your Data, even when using Services that are offered free of charge, such as Google AI Studio and unpaid quota of Gemini API."&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887832"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;kmod 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;There are a few conditions that take precedence over having-billing-enabled and will cause AI Studio to train on your data. This is why I personally use Vertex&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883840"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;KTibow 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Vertex is the enterprise platform. It also happens to have much higher rate limits, even for free models.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884984"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chrisheecho 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Hey there, I’m Chris Cho (x: chrischo_pm, Vertex PM focusing on DevEx) and Ivan Nardini (x: ivnardini, DevRel). We heard you and let us answer your questions directly as possible.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;First of all, thank you for your sentiment for our latest 2.5 Gemini model. We are so glad that you find the models useful! We really appreciate this thread and everyone for the feedback on Gemini/Vertex&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We read through all your comments. And YES, – clearly, we've got some friction in the DevEx. This stuff is super valuable, helps me to prioritize. Our goal is to listen, gather your insights, offer clarity, and point to potential solutions or workarounds.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I’m going to respond to some of the comments given here directly on the thread&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886140"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ctxc 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Had to move away from Gemini because the SDK just didn't work.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Regardless of if I passed a role or not, the function would say something to the effect of "invalid role, accepted are user and model".&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Tried switching to openAI compatible SDK, it threw errors for tool call calls and I just gave up.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Could you confirm if it was a known bug that was fixed?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886173"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ctxc 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The error fyr https://x.com/dvsj_in/status/1895522286297567369?t=qYLx3kchj...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889375"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chrisheecho 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;You don't have to specify role when you call through Python (https://cloud.google.com/vertex-ai/generative-ai/docs/start/...)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(which I think is what you are using but maybe i'm wrong).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Feel free to DM me on @chrischo_pm on X. Stuff that you are describing shouldn't happen&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887007"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Deathmax 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Can we avoid weekend changes to the API? I know it's all non-GA, but having `includeThoughts` suddenly work at ~10AM UTC on a Sunday and the raw thoughts being returned after they were removed is nice, but disruptive.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888918"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chrisheecho 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Can you tell me the exact instance when this happened please? I will take this feedback back to my colleagues. But in order to change how we behave I need a baseline and data&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889153"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Deathmax 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Thoughts used to be available in the Gemini/Vertex APIs when Gemini 2.0 Flash Thinking Experimental was initially introduced [1][2], and subsequently disabled to the public (I assume hidden behind a visibility flag) shortly after DeepSeek R1's release [3] regardless of the `include_thoughts` setting.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;At ~10:15AM UTC 04 May, a change was rolled out to the Vertex API (but not the Gemini API) that caused the API to respect the `include_thoughts` setting and return the thoughts. For consumers that don't handle the thoughts correctly and had specified `include_thoughts = true`, the thinking traces then leaked into responses.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;[1]: https://googleapis.github.io/python-genai/genai.html#genai.t...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;[2]: https://ai.google.dev/api/generate-content#ThinkingConfig&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;[3]: https://github.com/googleapis/python-genai/blob/157b16b8df40...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886434"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jbellis 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Can you ask whoever owns dashboards to make it so I can troubleshoot quota exceeded errors like this? https://x.com/spyced/status/1917635135840858157&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43956337"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;logankilpatrick 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;We are working on fixing this and showing the critical ones in AIS. I agree it is crazy there is 700+ items here. Real pain in the neck to deal with.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885096"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;egamirorrim 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I love that you're responding on HN, thanks for that! While you're here I don't suppose you can tell me when Gemini 2.5 Pro is hitting European regions on Vertex? My org forbids me from using it until then.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885498"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;m3adow 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Yeah, not having clear time lines for new releases on the one hand, but being quick with deprecation of older models isn't a very good experience.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885909"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;froggertoaster 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Thanks for replying, and I can safely say that most of us just want first-class conformity with OpenAI's API without JSON schema weirdness (not using refs, for instance) baked in.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886518"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;troupo 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Or returning null for null values, not some "undefined" string.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Or not failing when passing `additionalProperties: false`&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Or..&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885583"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;irthomasthomas 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Hi, one thing I am really struggling with in AI studio API is stop_sequences. I know how to request them, but cannot see how to determine which stop_sequence was triggered. They don't show up in the stop_reason like most other APIs. Is that something which vertex API can do? I've built some automation tools around stop_sequences, using them for control logic, but I can't use Gemini as the controller without a lot of brittle parsing logic.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892139"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;shresbm123 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Thank you feedback noted&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886562"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;troupo 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Is there an undocumented hardcoded timeout for Gemini responses even in streaming mode? JSON output according to a schema can get quite lengthy, and I can't seem to get all of it for some inputs because Gemini seemingly terminates requests&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887132"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;NoahZuniga 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is probably just you hitting the model's internal output length maximum. Its 65,536 tokens for 2.5 pro and flash.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For other models, see this link and open up the collapsed section for your specific model: https://ai.google.dev/gemini-api/docs/models&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887164"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;troupo 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Thanks! It might just be that!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886775"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;moralestapia 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is so cringe.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I hope it doesn't become a trend on this site.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887101"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;thebytefairy 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;A team taking the opportunity to engage directly with their users to understand their feedback so they can improve the product? So cringe.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43900518"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lern_too_spel 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Google usually doesn't care what users say at all. This is why they so often have product-crippling bugs and missing features. At least this guy is making a show of trying before he transfers to another project.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886963"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tgv 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;It’s the US style, which has made its way across the pond too: you have to make upbeat noises to remove any suspicion you’re criticizing.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888328"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;moralestapia 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Unlike others ... you got it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It is incredibily lame for a gargantuan company like Google and their thousands of developers and PMs and this and that ... to come to a remote corner of the web to pretend they are doing what they should have done 10 years ago.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888483"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;creatonez 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Google should have cleaned up its Gemini API 10 years ago?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890791"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;moralestapia 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;Chat, briefly, what does a PM at a company like Google do?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;"A Product Manager (PM) at Google is responsible for guiding the development of products from conception to launch. They identify user needs, define product vision and strategy, prioritize features, work with cross-functional teams (engineering, design, marketing), and ensure the product aligns with business goals. They act as the bridge between technical teams and stakeholders to deliver successful, user-focused solutions."&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Some might have ignored your question, but in the spirit of good conversation, I figured I’d share a quick explanation of what a PM does, just in case it helps!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897374"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chrisheecho 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This sounds accurate. I see myself as a Pain Manager more than a Product manager. Product just solves the pain that users have ;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Sometimes we get it right the first time we launch it, I think most of the time we get it right over a period of time.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Trying to do a little bit better everyday and ship as fast as possible!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883375"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;asadm 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't get the outrage. Just use their OpenAI endpoints: https://ai.google.dev/gemini-api/docs/openai&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's the best model out there.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883720"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ramoz 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I have no issues with their native structured outputs either. Other than confusing and partially incomplete documentation.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885000"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chrisheecho 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Ramoz, good to hear that native Structured Outputs are working! But if the docs are 'confusing and partially incomplete,' that’s not a good DevEx. Good docs are non-negotiable. We are in the process of revamping the whole documentation site. Stay tuned, you will see something better than what we have today.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888142"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ramoz 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Product idea for structured outputs: Dynamic Json field... like imagine if I want a custom schema generated (e.g. for new on-the-fly structured outputs).&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888912"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chrisheecho 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;ooh i like!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887754"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;malshe 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Thanks for sharing this. I did not know this existed&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883494"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;rafram 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Site seems to be down - I can’t get the article to load - but by far the most maddening part of Vertex AI is the way it deals with multimodal inputs. You can’t just attach an image to your request. You have to use their file manager to upload the file, then make sure it gets deleted once you’re done.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That would all still be OK-ish except that their JS library only accepts a local path, which it then attempts to read using the Node `fs` API. Serverless? Better figure out how to shim `fs`!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It would be trivial to accept standard JS buffers. But it’s not clear that anyone at Google cares enough about this crappy API to fix it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884996"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chrisheecho 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;That’s correct! You can send images through uploading either the Files API from Gemini API or Google Cloud Storage (GCS) bucket reference. What we DON’T have a sample on is sending images through bytes. Here is a screenshot of the code sample from the “Get Code” function in the Vertex AI studio. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rQRyS4ztJmVgL2ZW35NXY0TW-S0... Let me create a feature request to get these samples in our docs because I could not find a sample too. Fixing it&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883544"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Deathmax 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; You can’t just attach an image to your request.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You can? Google limits HTTP requests to 20MB, but both the Gemini API and Vertex AI API support embedded base64-encoded files and public URLs. The Gemini API supports attaching files that are uploaded to their Files API, and the Vertex AI API supports files uploaded to Google Cloud Storage.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884180"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;rafram 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Their JavaScript library didn’t support that as of whenever I tried.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884230"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;simonw 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I got their most recent JavaScript API library to work for images here: https://tools.simonwillison.net/gemini-mask&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Here's the code: https://github.com/simonw/tools/blob/main/gemini-mask.html&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883894"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mofunnyman 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Semi hugged.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883349"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ryao 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I have not pushed my local commits to GitHub lately (and probably should), but my experience with the Gemini API so far has been relatively positive:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://github.com/ryao/gemini-chat&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The main thing I do not like is that token counting is rated limited. My local offline copies have stripped out the token counting since I found that the service becomes unusable if you get anywhere near the token limits, so there is no point in trimming the history to make it fit. Another thing I found is that I prefer to use the REST API directly rather than their Python wrapper.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Also, that comment about 500 errors is obsolete. I will fix it when I do new pushes.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884827"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;yorick 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;It looks like you can use the gemma tokenizer to count tokens up to at least the 1.5 models. The docs claim that there's a local compute_tokens function in google-genai, but it looks like it just does an API call.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Example for 1.5:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://github.com/googleapis/python-aiplatform/blob/main/ve...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883464"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lemming 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Additionally, there's no OpenAPI spec, so you have to generate one from their protobuf specs if you want to use that to generate a client model. Their protobuf specs live in a repo at https://github.com/googleapis/googleapis/tree/master/google/.... Now you might think that v1 would be the latest there, but you would be wrong - everyone uses v1beta (not v1, not v1alpha, not v1beta3) for reasons that are completely unclear. Additionally, this repo is frequently not up to date with the actual API (it took them ages to get the new thinking config added, for example, and their usage fields were out of date for the longest time). It's really frustrating.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885002"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chrisheecho 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;lemming, this is super helpful, thank you. We provide the genai SDK (https://github.com/googleapis/python-genai) to reduce the learning curve in 4 languages (GA: Python, Go Preview: Node.JS, Java). The SDK works for all Gemini APIs provided by Google AI Studio (https://ai.google.dev/) and Vertex AI.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885167"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;egamirorrim 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;The way dependency resolution works in Java with the special, Google only, giant dynamic BOM resolver is hell on earth.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We have to write code that round robins every region on retries to get past how overloaded/poorly managed vertex is (we're not hitting our quotas) and yes that's even with retry settings on the SDK.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Read timeouts aren't configurable on the Vertex SDK.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883571"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ezekiel68 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Eh, you know. "Move fast and break things."&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883933"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;caturopath 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I'm not sure "move fast" describes the situation.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891294"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ezekiel68 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Hmm, the proliferation of branches, including some which seem perhaps more recent than "v1beta" made me imagine this could apply.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883983"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;fumeux_fume 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I’m sorry have you used Azure? I’ve worked with all the major cloud providers and Google has its warts, but pales in comparison to the hoops Azure make you jump through to make a simple API call.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884252"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ic_fly2 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Azure API for LLM changes depending on what datacenter you are calling. It is bonkers. In fact it is so bad that at work we are hosting our own LLMs on azure GPU machines rather than use their API. (Which means we only have small models at much higher cost...)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883074"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jauntywundrkind 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;In general, it's just wild to see Google squander such an intense lead.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In 2012, Google was far ahead of the world in making the vast majority of their offerings intensely API-first, intensely API accessible.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It all changed in such a tectonic shift. The Google Plus/Google+ era was this weird new reality where everything Google did had to feed into this social network. But there was nearly no API available to anyone else (short of some very simple posting APIs), where Google flipped a bit, where the whole company stopped caring about the rest of the world and APIs and grew intensely focused on internal use, on themselves, looked only within.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't know enough about the LLM situation to comment, but Google squandering such a huge lead, so clearly stopping caring about the world &amp;amp; intertwingularity, becoming so intensely internally focused was such a clear clear clear fall. There's the Google Graveyard of products, but the loss in my mind is more clearly that Google gave up on APIs long ago, and has never performed any clear acts of repentance for such a grevious mis-step against the open world, open possibilities, against closed &amp;amp; internal focus.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883350"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;simonw 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;With Gemini 2.5 (both Pro and Flash) Google have regained so much of that lost ground. Those are by far the best long-context models right now, extremely competitively priced and they have features like image mask segmentation that aren't available from other models yet: https://simonwillison.net/2025/Apr/18/gemini-image-segmentat...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883449"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jasonfarnon 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I think the commenter was saying google squandered its lead ("goodwill" is how I would refer to it) in providing open and interoperable services, not the more recent lead it squandered in AI. I agree with your point that they've made up a lot of that ground with gemini 2.5.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883528"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;simonw 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yeah you're right, I should have read their comment more closely.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Google's API's have a way steeper learning curve than is necessary. So many of their APIs depend on complex client libraries or technologies like GRPC that aren't used much outside of Google.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Their permission model is diabolically complex to figure out too - same vibes as AWS, Google even used the same IAM acronym.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883954"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;PantaloonFlames 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; So many of their APIs depend on complex client libraries or technologies like GRPC that aren't used much outside of Google.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't see that dependency. With ANY of the APIs. They're all documented. I invoke them directly from within emacs . OR you can curl them. I almost never use the wrapper libraries.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I agree with your point that the client libraries are large and complicated, for my tastes. But there's no inherent dependency of the API on the library. The dependency arrow points the other direction. The libraries are optional; and in my experience, you can find 3p libraries that are thinner and more targeted if you like.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886325"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;paul-tharun 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I sometimes feel the complexity is present by design to increase the switching cost. Once you understand it and set it up on a project, you are locked in, as the perceived cost of moving is too high.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886818"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;xyzzy_plugh 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;This is bizarre to read. gRPC is used _widely_ outside Google. I'm not aware of any API that requires you to use gRPC. I've never found their permission model to be complicated at all, at least compared to AWS.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883716"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Aeolun 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I feel like the AWS model isn’t all that hard for most of their API’s. It’s just something you don’t really want to think about.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883774"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tyre 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Gemini 2.5 Pro is so good. I’ve found that using it as the architect and orchestrator, then farming subtasks and computer use to sonnet, is the best ROI&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883956"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;PantaloonFlames 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;You can also farm out subtasks to the Gemini Flash models. For example using Aider, use Pro for the "strong" model and Flash for the weak model.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891590"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tyre 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I’ve tried flash. Sonnet with computer use has been a blast. Limited anecdata led me to 2.5 Pro + 3.7 Sonnet, but this all moves so fast that it good to reevaluate regularly.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885109"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;egamirorrim 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;OOI what's your preferred framework for that managing agent/child agents setup?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891587"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tyre 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I use Roo Code. It’s very good.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883881"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;candiddevmike 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The models are great but the quotas are a real pain in the ass. You will be fighting other customers for capacity if you end up needing to scale. If you have serious Gemini usage in mind, you almost have to have a Google Cloud TAM to advocate for your usage and quotas.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885003"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chrisheecho 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;We have moved our quota system to Dynamic Shared Quota (https://cloud.google.com/vertex-ai/generative-ai/docs/quotas) for 2.0+ models. There are no quotas in DSQ. If you need a guaranteed throughput there is an option to purchase Provisioned Throughput (https://cloud.google.com/vertex-ai/generative-ai/docs/provis...).&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886299"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dist-epoch 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;While we are talking about quotas, can you maybe add an easy way of checking how much you've used/got left?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Apparently now you need to use google-cloud-quotas to get the limit and google-cloud-monitoring to get the usage.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;VS Code copilot managed to implement the first part, getting the limit using gemini-2.5-pro, but when I asked gemini to implement the second part it said that integrating cloud-monitoring is too complex and it can't do it !!!!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885112"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;egamirorrim 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The thing is that the entry level of provisioned throughput is so high! I just want a reliable model experience for my small Dev team using models through Vertex but I don't think there's anything I can buy there to ensure it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887267"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;harlysparks 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Google's headcount (and internal red tap) grew significantly from 2012 to 2025. You're highlighting the fact that at some point in its massive growth, Google had to stop relentlessly pushing R&amp;amp;D and allocate leadership focus on addressing technical debt (or at least operational efficiency) that was a consequence of that growth.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883928"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;caturopath 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I don't understand why Sundar Pichai hasn't been replaced. Google seems like it's been floundering with respect to its ability to innovate and execute in the past decade. To the extent that this Google has been a good maintenance org for their cash cows, even that might not be a good plan if they dropped the ball with AI.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887284"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;harlysparks 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Perhaps you need to first define "innovation" and maybe also rationalize why that view of innovation is the end-all of determining CEO performance. Otherwise you're begging the question here.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Google's stock performance, revenue growth, and political influence in Washington under his leadership has grown substantially. I don't disagree that there are even better CEO's out there, but as an investor, the framing of your question is way off. Given the financial performance, why would you want to replace him?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43907262"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;caturopath 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I didn't say that innovation was the end-all of determining CEO performance, though producing new products and creating new markets is the angle that tech tends to go for. I mentioned Google's struggles to execute: they have an astoundingly hard time getting shit done compared to the other largest tech companies.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The counterfactual isn't Google having average performance. You're crediting the stock performance, revenue growth, and political influence (don't really agree this last one was a place Google shined over this period) to Sundar's leadership; I think it has a lot more to do with the company he was handed.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886253"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;rs186 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Answer is simple: he keeps cash coming in and stock price rising. You can compare his performance to his predecessors and CEOs at other companies. That does not necessarily make him a "good" leader in your eyes, but good enough to the board.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883961"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;huntertwo 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Everybody’s thinking the same thing. He sucks.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887076"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;shawabawa3 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Google is the leader in LLMs and self-driving cars, two of the biggest innovation areas in the last decade, so how exactly has it been floundering in its ability to innovate and execute?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43907319"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;caturopath 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Google isn't "the leader" in LLMs. Despite a huge funnel to get users in, for intentional use they are a distant second place for consumers, fourth place for LLM APIs, and reputationally treated as an underdog to two tiny companies.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886799"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;HDThoreaun 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;googles worth 2 trillion dollars off the back of a website. I think investors are so out of their depth with tech that theyre cool with his mediocre performance&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43907334"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;caturopath 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Two websites and an ad business.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883879"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;aaronbrethorst 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Hubris. It seems similar, at least externally, to what happened at Microsoft in the late 90s/early 00s. I am convinced that a split-up of Microsoft would have been invigorating for the spin-offs, and the tech industry in general would have been better for it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Maybe we’ll get a do-over with Google.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889527"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sawyna 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;My personal daily experience with this! I first used vertexai APIs because that's what they suggested, that Gemini APIs are not for production use.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Then there comes the Google.generativeai. I don't remember the reason but they were pushing me to start using this library.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Now it's all flashy google.genai libraries that they are pushing!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I have figured that this is what I should use and this is the documentation that I should look for, because doing a Google search or using an LLM gives me so many confusing results. The only thing that works for sure is reading the library code. That's what I'm doing these days.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For example, the documentation in one of those above libraries say that Gemini can read a document from cloud storage if you give it the uri. That doesn't work in google.genai library. I couldn't figure out why. I imagined maybe Gemini might need access to the cloud storage bucket, but I couldn't find any documentation as to how I can do that. I finally understood that I need to use the new file API and that uri works.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes, I like Gemini model they are really good. But the library documentation can be significantly simpler.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885901"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;msp26 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;The linked blog is down. But agreed, I would especially like to see this particular thing fixed.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Property ordering&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; When you're working with JSON schemas in the Gemini API, the order of properties is important. By default, the API orders properties alphabetically and does not preserve the order in which the properties are defined (although the Google Gen Al SDKs may preserve this order). If you're providing examples to the model with a schema configured, and the property ordering of the examples is not consistent with the property ordering of the schema, the output could be rambling or unexpected.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883354"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;SmellTheGlove 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Google’s APIs are all kind of challenging to ramp up on. I’m not sure if it’s the API itself or the docs just feeling really fragmented. It’s hard to find what you’re looking for even if you use their own search engine.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883967"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;PantaloonFlames 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;The problem I've had is not that the APIs are complicated but that there are so darn many of them.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I agree the API docs are not high on the usability scale. No examples, just reference information with pointers to types, which embed other types, which use abstract descriptions. Figuring out what sort of json payload you need to send, can take...a bunch of effort.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883886"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;candiddevmike 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The Google Cloud API library is meant to be pretty dead simple. While there are bugs, there's a good chance if something's not working it's because of overthinking or providing too many args. Alternatively, doing more advanced stuff and straying from the happy path may lead to dragons.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885775"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;arccy 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;they're usually pretty well structured and actually follow design principles like https://cloud.google.com/apis/design and https://google.aip.dev/1&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;once it clicks, it's infinitely better than the AWS style GetAnythingGoes apis....&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885856"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;miki123211 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;TBH, my biggest gripe with Google is that they seem to support a slightly different JSON schema format for structured outputs than everybody else. Where Open AI encourages (or even forces) you to use refs for embedding one object in another, Google wants you to embed directly, which is not only wasteful but incompatible with how libraries that abstract over model providers do it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;My structured output code (which uses litellm under the hood, which converts from Pydantic models to JSON schemas), does not work with Google's models for that reason.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886247"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;intalentive 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I used Gemini to write a function that recursively resolves all the refs. Not a big deal to convert your pydantic schemas.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887864"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;kmod 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;The worst part to me is the privacy nightmare with AI Studio. It's essentially impossible to tell whether any particular API call will end up being included in their training data since this depends on properties that are stored elsewhere and are not available to the developer -- even a simple property such as "does this account have billing enabled" is oddly difficult to evaluate, and I was told by their support that because I at one point had any free credits on my account that it was a trial account and not a billed account even though I had a credit card attached and was being charged. I don't know if this is true and there is no way for me to find out.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;At some point they updated their privacy policy in regards to this, but instead of saying that this will cause them to train on your data, now the privacy policy says both that they will train on this data and that they will not train on this data, with no indication of which statement takes precedence over the other.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892155"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;shresbm123 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Unless you are in the free tier of the API we do not train on your data. But let us make it clearer in the policy. If you would like to get more clarity on terms please DM me at @shresbm on X&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883659"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tom_m 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Doesn't matter much, Google already won the AI race. They had all the eyeballs already. There's a huge reason why they are getting slapped with anti-trust right now. The other companies aren't happy.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I agree though, their marketing and product positioning is super confusing and weird. They are running their AI business in a very very very strange way. This has created a delay, I don't think opportunity for others, in their dominance in this space.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Using Gemini inside BigQuery (this is via Vertex) is such a stupid good solution. Along with all of the other products that support BigQuery (datastream from cloudsql MySQL/postgres, dataform for query aggregation and transformation jobs, BigQuery functions, etc.), there's an absolutely insane amount of power to bring data over to Gemini and back out.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's literally impossible for OpenAI to compete because Google has all of the other ingredients here already and again, the user base.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm surprised AWS didn't come out stronger here, weird.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883668"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tom_m 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Oh and it's not just Gemini, I'm sorry. It's Vertex. So it's other models as well. Those you train too.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887241"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ashu1461 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I don't think so, it might be true for their long tail customers, but most of the tech folks have not used Google Search / Gemini APIs in ages.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887293"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;harlysparks 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;They are getting slapped with anti-trust right now because they gave $10M to Kamala Harris and only $1M to Trump.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Also, the AI race is a red queen race. There is no line on the sand that says "you are the ultimate winner", that's not how time works. And given that the vast majority of the internet is on AWS, NOT GCP, and that Gemini isn't even the most popular LLM among AI developers, I'm not sure you can even say that Google is the leader at this exact point in time.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43954106"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tom_m 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yea, but Microsoft was slapped with anti-trust before too. These companies shrug it off.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yea, I guess it's not really much of a race. Because they are competing for something Google already largely has.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In a few years, literally everyone is going to have the same AI and it'll become cheaper and cheaper to operate. I mean already, if you look at those leaderboards, many models are more or less the same.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Training data (legal data) is running out. The algorithms are pushing their limits. It's not unlimited. It's not the second coming of Jesus as some people believe. It's a commodity and everyone is going to have it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So fast forward a little and think about that. The companies in the better position, the "winners," are going to be the same they always are. Those with the bigger user base and those with more data. That's Google. Yes, AWS too. Yes, Microsoft.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The reason I'm bullish on Google is I suppose not because of Gemini itself. It's because of a super power like Google having their own LLM that performs as well as any other.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I also believe OpenAI will go out of business or be acquired. They way way overspent, but they were also pioneers here a bit so they took on that burden. They over raised. That's painfully obvious after DeepSeek. They lost most of their top talent. They are being propped up because there's a LOT of money at stake. Not just for OpenAI but for other companies too. They are the face of AI so if they went belly up tomorrow then it'd start a wave of panic selling. People would think AI failed. So until some other successor steps in (Meta, Microsoft, Google, etc.), everyone including competitors will keep OpenAI on life support if need be. I don't think it helps that they foolishly bought Windsurf for $3B when you go and look at Roo Code hanging out there for free.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886657"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;djohnston 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Google APIs have always been difficult for me to use. I find their documentation super fragmented, and they always build the same thing twice with awkward overlaps. In this case, it's Vertex and GenAI - two different SDKs with isomorphic data structures that are seemingly incompatible, but only sometimes. I don't understand how these things happen - but as usual I blame PMs trying to mark their territory and pissing all over everything.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The new gemini models themselves though, are killer. The confusion is a small price to pay.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887233"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;harlysparks 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The duplicative functions and overlapping features is a product of how their perf annual review cycle works and the way you have to play the game to get promotions as a SWE there. I think they've changed the setup in the last few years, but historically Google rewards building lots of beta versions of stuff with some commercial potential, throwing it over a wall and seeing what sticks.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892115"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;shresbm123 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Haha as one of those PMs - thank you for appreciating the models. We do have a unified SDK and are working on making the docs more comprehensive and clearer. But do let keep giving us specific and candid feedback&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888042"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;smel 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;This happen when you have 200k employees competing internally more than with outside competition.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885536"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Havoc 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Definitely designed by multiple teams with no coordination.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The very generous free tier is pretty much the only reason I'm using it at all&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883450"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;behnamoh 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Even their OAI-compatible API isn't fully compatible. Tools like Instructor have special-casing for Gemini...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885558"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mattw1810 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Their patchy JSON schema support for tool calls &amp;amp; structured generation is also very annoying... things like unions that you’d think are table stakes (and in fact work fine with both OpenAI and Anthropic) get rejected &amp;amp; you have to go reengineer your entire setup to accommodate it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886297"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;kaycey2022 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The page 404s now. I wonder what was said. :(&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886404"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zodiakzz 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;https://archive.ph/20250504014835/https://venki.dev/notes/go...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886785"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;stoicfungi 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Multiple SDKs, and the documentation and API responses are not consistent. Today I've spent hours just to make MCP &amp;amp; function calling work. It is really painful to work with.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892687"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;humerahoneya123 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;It’s wild how Gemini is leading the pack on model capabilities—context length, fine-tuning, multimodality—and yet using it feels like you’re solving a UX puzzle just to ship a basic feature. It’s almost ironic: Google builds some of the smartest models out there, but makes devs feel dumb trying to integrate them. Imagine the adoption surge if the experience was even half as smooth as OpenAI’s. Power without usability is just potential, not progress.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886939"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bundie 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Why is the page 404-ing?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887147"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Squarex 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The link is not working anymore. Maybe the article has been deleted?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898675"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Max-Limelihood 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I'mma be honest, I think the API is great—EXCEPT THEY STILL DON'T HAVE LOGPROBS. ARGH.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884945"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;simianwords 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Am I the only one who prefers a more serious approach to prefix caching? It is a powerful tool and having an endpoint dedicated to it and being able to control TTL's using parameters seems like the best approach.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;On the other hand the first two approaches from OpenAI and Anthropic are frankly bad. Automatically detecting what should be prefix cached? Yuck! And I can't even set my own TTL's in Anthropic API (feel free to correct me - a quick search revealed this).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Serious features require serious approaches.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886540"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;simonw 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Automatically detecting what should be prefix cached? Yuck!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Why don't you like that? I absolutely love it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887441"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;simianwords 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I mean't that this is the only way to control prefix caching. I consider this a serious feature - if I were to make an application using prefix caching I would not consider OpenAI at all. I can't control what gets cached and for how long.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Wouldn't you want to give more power to the developer? Prefix caching seems like an important enough concept to leak to the end user.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887825"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;simonw 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Gemini's approach to prefix caching requires me to pay per hour for keeping the cache populated. I have to do pretty sophisticated price modeling and load prediction to use that effectively.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Anthropic require me to add explicit cache breakpoints to my prompts, which charge for writes to the cache. If I get that wrong it can be more expensive than if I left caching turned off entirely.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;With OpenAI I don't have to do any planning or optimistic guessing at all: if my app gets a spike in traffic the caching kicks in automatically and saves me money.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887974"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;simianwords 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;that's fair - i have some app ideas for which i would like control over prefix caching. for example you may want to prompt cache entire chunks of enterprise data that don't change too often. the whole RAG application would be built over this concept - paying per hour for caching is sensible here.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;With OpenAI I don't have to do any planning or optimistic guessing at all: if my app gets a spike in traffic the caching kicks in automatically and saves me money.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;i think these are completely different use cases. is this not different just from having a redis sitting in front of the LLM provider?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;fundamentally i feel like prompt caching is something i want to control and not have happen automatically; i want to use information i have over my (future) access patterns to save costs. for instance i might prompt cache a whole PDF and ask multiple questions. if i choose to prompt cache the PDF, i can save a non trivial amount of tokens processed. how can OpenAI's automatic approach help me here?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883569"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bionhoward 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Also has the same customer noncompete copy pasted from ClosedAI. Not that anyone seemingly cares about the risk of lawsuits from Google for using Gemini in a way that happens to compete with random-Gemini-tentacle-123&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885367"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;franze 7 months ago | prev [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;yeah, also grounding with Google in Google 2.5 Pro does not&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;... deliver any URLs back, just the domains from where it grounded it response&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;it should return vertexai urls that redirect to the sources, but doesn't do it in all cases (in non of mine) according to the docs&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;plus you mandatory need to display an HTML fragment with search links that you are not allowed to edit&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;basically a corporate infight as an API&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;p&gt;Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/body&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">efe4d33fef7e6447</guid>
      <category>google</category>
      <pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2025 18:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Time saved by AI offset by new work created, study suggests | Hacker News</title>
      <link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43878850</link>
      <description>&lt;div&gt;&lt;title&gt;&lt;p&gt;Time saved by AI offset by new work created, study suggests | Hacker News&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/title&gt;&lt;body&gt;&lt;table bgcolor="#f6f6ef" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" id="hnmain" width="85%"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td bgcolor="#ff6600"&gt;&lt;table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;login&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="bigbox"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr id="43878850"&gt;&lt;td&gt;Time saved by AI offset by new work created, study suggests (arstechnica.com)&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;448 points by amichail 7 months ago | hide | past | favorite | 446 comments&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr id="43879387"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;NalNezumi 7 months ago | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I can't find the article anymore but I remember reading almost 10 years ago an article on the economist saying that the result of automation was not removal of jobs but more work + less junior employment positions.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The example they gave was search engine + digital documents removed the junior lawyer headcount by a lot. Prior to digital documents, a fairly common junior lawyer task was: "we have a upcoming court case. Go to the (physical) archive and find past cases relevant to current case. Here's things to check for:" and this task would be assigned to a team of junior (3-10 people). But now one junior with a laptop suffice. As a result the firm can also manage more cases.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Seems like a pretty general pattern.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879755"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Balgair 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Dwarkesh had a good interview with Zuck the other week. And in it, Zuck had an interesting example (that I'm going to butcher):&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;FB has long wanted to have a call center for its ~3.5B users. But that call center would automatically be the largest in history and cost ~15B/yr to run. Something that is cost ineffective in the extreme. But, with FB's internal AIs, they're starting to think that a call center may be feasible. Most of the calls are going to be 'I forgot my password' and 'it's broken' anyways. So having a robot guide people along the FAQs in the 50+ languages is perfectly fine for ~90% (Zuck's number here) of the calls. Then, with the harder calls, you can actually route it to a human.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So, to me, this is a great example of how the interaction of new tech and labor is a fractal not a hierarchy. In that, with each new tech that your specific labor sector finds, you get this fractalization of the labor in the end. Zuck would have never thought of a call center, denying the labor of many people. But this new tech allows for a call center that looks a lot like the old one, just with only the hard problems. It's smaller, yes, but it looks the same and yet is slightly different (hence a fractal).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Look, I'm not going to argue that tech is disruptive. But what I am arguing is that tech makes new jobs (most of the time), it's just that these new jobs tend to be dealing with much harder problems. Like, we''re pushing the boundaries here, and that boundary gets more fractal-y, and it's a more niche and harder working environment for your brain. The issue, of course, is that, like a grad student, you have to trust in the person working at the boundary is actually doing work and not just blowing smoke. That issue, the one of trust, I think is the key issue to 'solve'. Cal Newport talks a lot about this now and how these knowledge worker tasks really don't do much for a long time, and then they have these spats of genius. It's a tough one, and not an intellectual enterprise, but an emotional one.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880490"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;firefoxd 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I worked in automated customer support, and I agree with you. By default, we automated 40% of all requests. It becomes harder after that, but not because the problems the next 40% face are any different, but because they are unnecessarily complex.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;A customer who wants to track the status of their order will tell you a story about how their niece is visiting from Vermont and they wanted to surprise her for her 16th birthday. It's hard because her parents don't get along as they used to after the divorce, but they are hoping that this will at the very least put a smile on her face.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The AI will classify the message as order tracking correctly, and provide all the tracking info and timeline. But because of the quick response, the customer will write back to say they'd rather talk to a human and ask for a phone number they can call.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The remaining 20% can't be resolved by neither human nor robot.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880638"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dweinus 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Between the lines, you highlight a tangental issue: execs like Zuckerberg think easy/automatable stuff is 90%. People with skin in the game know it is much less (40% per your estimate).This isn't unique to LLMs. Overestimating the benefit of automation is a time-honored pastime.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884718"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dhosek 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I’ve noticed this when trying to book a flight with American Airlines earlier this year. Their website booking was essentially broken, insisting that one of my flight segments was fully booked but giving no indication of which one and attempting alternate bookings which replaced each of the segments in turn still failed. They’d replaced most of their phone booking people with an AI system that also was nonfunctional and wanted to direct me to the website to book. After a great deal of effort, I managed to finally reach a human being who was able to place the booking in a couple minutes (and, it turned out, at a lower price than the website had been quoting).&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43882610"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;svelle 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;This reminds me how Klarna fired their a large part of their customer support department to replace it with ai, only to eventually realize they couldn't do the job primarily using ai and had to rehire a ton of people.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884421"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;malfist 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;That might have been their story, but Klarna is struggling to maintain their runway at the moment and that may have been the bigger driver&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884629"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;vasco 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;You're not buying toilet paper and doritos in 12 easy payments?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884942"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;numpad0 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;OT: just googled that name, info panel on the right in my language settings categorizes it as "金融の連鎖", or "cascading of finances". am not sure how to take that.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886171"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;LtWorf 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Klarna is basically loan sharks but if you do it with an app is legal. Also Opera the browser moved to doing that.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886816"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nradov 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;In fairness to Klarna, the interest rates they charge are typically low or even zero. The problem is more that they're encouraging poor people to waste money on things they probably shouldn't buy in the first place, like expensive concert tickets or consumer electronics.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888474"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;malfist 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I used to work at a competitor to klarna so take this with a grain of salt, but the zero interest rates aren't really zero. They finance either by klarna eating into their runway, or by the business paying the interest up front. Which usually leads to higher prices for everyone, regardless of you using klarna or not&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888831"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;krysp 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;That's only the case if demand is static. The parent comment mentions that "poor people buy more stuff" which is increased demand&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886283"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;shawabawa3 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Pretty good description tbh&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Their business model is an online payment provider (like e.g. PayPal/apple pay) that splits the payment into 3, 6 or 12 monthly payments, usually at 0% interest&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The idea being that for the business the loss in revenue from an interest free loan is worth it if it causes an increase in sales&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886298"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;numpad0 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;But isn't it supposed to be more like "financing franchise"?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886337"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sanderjd 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yeah I think I do already see this happening in my work. It's clearly very beneficial, but its benefit is also overestimated. This can lead to some disenchantment and even backlash where people conclude it's all useless.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But it isn't! It's very useful. Even if it isn't eliminating 90% of work, eliminating 40% is a huge benefit!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886313"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dreamcompiler 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I never call a customer service line unless the website doesn't work, but customer service robots try very hard to get me to hang up and go to the website.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's super frustrating. These robots need to have an option like "I am technically savvy and I tried the website and it's broken."&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886390"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ses1984 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Everyone would use that option.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Do you know why your isp asks you to unplug and plug your modem back in while on call, even if you insist you did that already? A surprising large number of people don’t even realize their modem isn’t even plugged in at all.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884650"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;baxtr 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Perhaps the value of believing in the 90% is the motivation it provides.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you don’t believe in an exaggerated potential, you might never start exploiting it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881190"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;exe34 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; But because of the quick response, the customer will write back to say they'd rather talk to a human&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Is this implying it's because they want to wag their chins?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;My experience recently with moving house was that most services I had to call had some problem that the robots didn't address. Fibre was listed as available on the website but then it crashed when I tried "I'm moving home" - turns out it's available in the general area but not available for the specific row of houses (had to talk to a human to figure it out). Water company, I had an account at house N-2, but at N-1 it was included, so the system could not move me from my N-1 address (no water bills) to house N (water bill). Pretty sure there was something about power and council tax too. With the last one I just stopped bothering, figuring that it's the one thing that they would always find me when they're ready (they got in touch eventually).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884254"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;noisy_boy 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The world is imperfect and we are pretty good at spotting the actual needle in the haystack of imperfection. We are also good at utilizing a whole range of disparate signals + past experience to make reasonably accurate decisions. It'll take some working for AI to be able to successfully handle such things at a large scale - this is all still frontier days of AI.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885304"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;exe34 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; this is all still frontier days of AI&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's why it annoys me how much effort they put into not talking to me, when it's clear that their machine cannot solve my problem.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885887"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;yurishimo 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;They don’t care about you. You are a number on a screen that happens to pay their company money sometimes. But by using recorded voices, the company hopes to tap into the empathetic part of your human brain to subconsciously make excuses for their crappy service.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;When I get stellar customer service these days, I’m happy and try to call it out, but i don’t expect it anymore. My first expectation is always AI slop or a shitty phone tree. When I reframed it for myself, it was a lot easier not to get frustrated about something that I can’t control and not blame a person who doesn’t exist.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886466"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;exe34 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; They don’t care about you. You are a number on a screen that happens to pay their company money sometimes.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Actually that reminds me, I couldn't figure out how to cancel my old insurance online and couldn't get to a person on the phone - I just deleted the direct debit, and waited until they called me to sort it out.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884902"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;petesergeant 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; A customer who wants to track the status of their order will tell you a story about how&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I build NPCs for an online game. A non trivial percentage of people are more than happy to tell these stories to anything that will listen, including an LLM. Some people will insist on a human, but an LLM that can handle small talk is going to satisfy more people than you might think.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881107"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;SoftTalker 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Zuck is just bullshitting here, like most of what he says.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There is zero chance he wants to pay even a single person to sit and take calls from users.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;He would eliminate every employee at Facebook it it were technically possible to automate what they do.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884636"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;vasco 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;So would everyone that ever created a business. Nobody grows headcount if they don't have to. Why be responsible for other people's livelihoods if you can make it work with less people? Just more worries and responsibilities.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885292"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ponector 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Nobody grows headcount if they don't have to.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;From my experience in corporations this is a false statement. The goal of each manager is to grow their headcount. More people under you - more weight you have and higher position you got.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885463"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;fdgjgbdfhgb 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;There is a difference between business owners (who don't want to spend money unless they have to) ans managers (who want career growth and are not necessarily worried about the company 's bottom line wrt headcount)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885616"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;7bit 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Why be responsible for other people's livelihoods if you can make it work with less people?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Because he is the fourth richest man on the planet and that demands some responsibility, which he refuses to take.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;He owns 162,000,000,000 dollars. Metas net income 2024 was 50,000,000,000 dollars.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885434"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dsq 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I think that once you have profit &amp;amp; loss responsibility that changes.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885812"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nkrisc 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;A manager’s net worth is not tied to the valuation of the company. They get their salary regardless.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885433"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dsq 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I think that once you have profit &amp;amp; loss responsibility that chanes.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885657"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;xenospn 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I don’t know about you, but for me, one of the greatest joys in life is being able to hire people and give them good jobs.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884925"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;delusional 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This doesn't seem true to me at all. Humans are not rational drones that analyze the business and coldly determines the required number of people. I would be surprised if CEOs didn't keep people around because it felt good to be a boss.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Facebook might be able to operate with half the headcount, but them Zuckerberg wouldn't be the boss of as many people, and I think he likes being the boss.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885063"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;hilux 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; I would be surprised if CEOs didn't keep people around because it felt good to be a boss.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you had hired people (and been responsible for their salaries and benefits and HR issues), you would definitely not say that.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886827"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;wizzwizz4 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Money unspent is worthless.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886211"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;unnamed76ri 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Most major corporations have increased head count in recent years when they didn’t have to via the creation of DEI roles. These positions might look good in the current cultural moment but add nothing to a company’s bottom line and so are an unnecessary drain on resources.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888781"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;unnamed76ri 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Ahh getting downvoted but no one has offered a counter-argument.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884102"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ivape 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;He can definitely fire most people at Facebook. He just doesn't because it would be like not providing a simple defense against a pawn move on a Chess board. No point in not matching the opposition's move if you can afford it. They hire, we hire, they fire, we fire.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884318"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zelphirkalt 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;FB would be run into the ground on day one, if he fired most people (&amp;gt;50%) at FB.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884349"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;falcor84 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Why?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Other than on-call roles like Production Engineers, whose absence there would make the company fail within a day?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884891"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zelphirkalt 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Because things would happen on the platform, that would be bad PR. Availability might even go down. Who knows what kind of automatized things need to be kept in check daily.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887895"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;falcor84 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; things would happen on the platform, that would be bad PR&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;They literally had (allegedly) significantly contributed to inciting a genocide [0]. PR doesn't get much worse than that, but it seems that we as a society, just don't care about these things that much any more. I really can't recall any case of any individual or organization going down because of PR issues, except for people in the entertainment industry; for some reason, we only expect good morals from our actors and comedians.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_content_management_co...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885299"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ponector 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Twitter example shows it might not be true.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885312"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zelphirkalt 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Twitter is dead now, right-wing echo hall. It basically ceased to exist in the way it did.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I will admit though, that it may be possible to continue existing in other ways, if he fired &amp;gt;50% of the people at FB.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886135"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;int_19h 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;This has more to do with Musk's policy, though. It's still up and running, so clearly the tech side wasn't as affected as people thought it would be.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886232"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;unnamed76ri 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;You are showing your own biases here. Twitter did cease to exist the way it did. In its place is a platform mostly free of censorship and with new features added.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I’d rather see humanity in all of its good, bad, and ugly than have a feed sanitized for me by random Twitter employees who in many cases had their own agenda.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886354"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zelphirkalt 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I would rather not see hate speech and incitement of violence online. If you think that Twitter in the form it has now doesn't have a hidden agenda ... That is a very naive believe to be held. Censorship is not the only negative thing that can happen to information. We should all have learned that lesson by now.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886886"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nradov 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't see any hate speech or incitement of violence on my X feed. If you do then you must be following the wrong accounts.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Censorship is the worst negative thing that can happen to information. We should have all learned that lesson by now.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887149"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sofixa 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Censorship is the worst negative thing that can happen to information. We should have all learned that lesson by now.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;On the contrary, some "information" doesn't deserve the light of day, and we should have learned that lesson in the 1930s and 1940s. The question is where to draw the line.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886403"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;unnamed76ri 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I want to see those things. Or rather, I want people to show me who they are.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I want to see all the dumb stuff politicians say. I want to see celebrities’ terrible opinions on things.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I’d rather know how messed up people are than have a feed sanitized for me to keep me ignorant.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887141"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sofixa 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Twitter did cease to exist the way it did. In its place is a platform mostly free of censorship and with new features added.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Try blocking or criticising Musk, or saying "cis" and come back to us on "mostly free of censorship".&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886420"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ses1984 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;It’s not mostly free of censorship, you can find many examples of mild left opinions being censored. Harsh epithets against the out group are allowed, up to and including death threats, but mild epithets against the right are removed and often result in bans.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Free speech on Twitter is a joke, and you either are arguing in bad faith or you have no idea what you’re talking about.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885562"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;aydyn 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Most major companies and politicians still use twitter for communication. It sounds like you are the one in the "echo hall"?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886366"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zelphirkalt 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;And exactly why would I care, what uninformed people at companies and what uninformed politicians do? And what does that have to do with me being in an "echo hall" (I think you mean echo chamber, btw..)? In what way is whatever platform politicians use indicative of that platform not being an echo chamber?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887361"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nradov 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;It doesn't matter whether you care or not. Your personal opinion is of no importance when it comes to mass-market social media and other horizontal platforms. The point is that a lot of politicians and business leaders will continue using X regardless of what you think of it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889819"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;aydyn 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Do you even realize that you are the one who used the phrase "echo hall"?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Might be time to step back and take a breath.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43894327"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zelphirkalt 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;You still didn't answer the question though. I asked you why it matters, whether politicians make uninformed use of a bad platform, when it comes to me being in an echo chamber or not. I think there is no relation between what silly things politicians do, and whether I am in an echo chamber or not.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I am not sure why I wrote "echo hall". I must have been mentally absent or something. To my own ears it sounds weird and not like something I would usually write. It might have been weird auto correction on phone. I am not sure. Anyway, that is besides the point. I would like to know, why you think, that what politicians do has any relation to me being in an echo chamber or not. I mean, do you define the outside of echo chambers to be the place, where politicians go? Like ... Are they such a massive number of people or somehow indicative of that outside? I just don't get your idea.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43908890"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;aydyn 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you are only getting your perspective from tertiary sources rather than primary sources, then you are more likely subject to a bias layer from intermediaries.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I really dont think I am saying anything controversial.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887008"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ponector 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; right-wing echo hall&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But it is the result of new agenda of new owner, not the result of mass layoffs. I'm sure the result would be the same without layoffs.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884298"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;BobbyTables2 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Sounds like his own job could be automated...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885031"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;cylemons 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The company is his property, ofc he won't fire himself&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880732"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palmotea 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Most of the calls are going to be 'I forgot my password' and 'it's broken' anyways. So having a robot guide people along the FAQs in the 50+ languages is perfectly fine for ~90% (Zuck's number here) of the calls.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;No it isn't. Attempts to do this are why I mash 0 repeatedly and chant "talk to an agent" after being in a phone tree for longer than a minute.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881197"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;exe34 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I try to enunciate very clearly: "What would you like to do?" - "Speak to a fcuking human. Speak to a fcuking human. Speak to a fcuking human. Speak to a fcuking human."&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881492"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;theoreticalmal 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Just say “fucking”&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885566"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;stavros 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;No wonder the AI couldn't understand.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881143"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Matthyze 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;And you don't think that this won't improve with better bots?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881245"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palmotea 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; And you don't think that this won't improve with better bots?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Actually, now that I think about it, yeah.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The whole purpose of the bots is to deflect you from talking to a human. For instance: Amazon's chatbot. It's gotten "better": now when I need assistance, it tries three times to deflect me from a person after it's already agreed to connect me to one.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Anything they'll allow the bot to do can probably can be done better by a customer facing webpage.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884160"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;spongebobstoes 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Maybe for you, but not for most people. Most people have problems that are answered online, but knowledge sites are hard to navigate, and they can't solve their own problems.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;A high quality bot to guide people through their poorly worded questions will be hugely helpful for a lot of people. AI is quickly getting to the point that a very high quality experience is possible.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The premise is also that the bots are what enable the people to exist. The status quo is no interactive customer service at all.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884873"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;safety1st 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This sounds to me like something that's better solved by RAG than by an AI manned call center.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Let's use Zuck's example, the lost password. Surely that's better solved with a form where you type things, such as your email address. If the problem is navigation, all we need to do is hook up a generative chat bot to the search function of the already existing knowledge site. Then you can ask it how to reset your password, and it'll send you to the form and write up instructions. The equivalent over a phone call sounds worse than this to me.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think Zuck is wrong that 90% of the problems people would call in for can easily be solved by an AI. I was stuck in a limbo with Instagram for about 18 months, where I was banned for no clear reason, there was no obvious way to contact them about it, and once I did find a way, we proceeded with a weird dance where I provided ID verification, they unbanned me, and then they rebanned me, and this happened a total of 4 times before the unban process actually worked. I don't see any AI agent solving this; the cause was obviously process and/or technical problems at Meta. This is the only thing I ever wanted to call Meta for.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And there is another big class of issue that people want to call any consumer-facing business for, which AI can't solve: loneliness. The person is retired and lives alone and just wants to talk to someone for 20 minutes, and uses a minor customer service request as a justification. This happens all the time. Actually an AI can address this problem, but it's probably not the same agent we would build for solving customer requests, and I say address rather than solve as AI will not solve society's loneliness epidemic.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887976"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;spongebobstoes 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Respectfully, I think your reply assumes that I am suggesting the only AI interface must be on the phone.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It should be everywhere, as a first line of customer service. Even once talking to a person, real-time translation is necessary -- it's not possible to staff enough skilled employees in every language on earth.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'd like to call out that "I can't log in" is the most common problem with Facebook, by a wide margin. HN user anecdotes are just not useful when assessing the scope of this problem.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'd also like to call out that many people (usually not English speaking) nearly exclusively use voice memos and phone calls, and rarely type anything at all.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think it is clear that AI will enable better customer service from Facebook. Without AI, a FB call center is clearly impossible. With AI, perhaps it begins to look feasible.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885790"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;paxys 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Zuck also said that AI is going to start replacing senior software engineers at Meta in 2025. His job isn’t to state objective facts but hype up his company’s products and share price.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886350"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sanderjd 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Honestly I hope this is true. I recognize this is a risky thing to say, for my own employment prospects as a software engineer. But if companies like Facebook could run their operations with fewer engineers, and those people could instead start or join a larger diversity of smaller businesses, that would be a positive development.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I do think we're going to see less employment for "coding" but I remain optimistic that we're going to see more employment for "creating useful software".&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880301"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;wslh 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Sorry for the acidity, just training my patience while waiting for the mythical FB/AI call center.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880634"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Balgair 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yeah, I was a little credulous about what Zuck said there too.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Like, if AI is so good, then it'll just eat away at those jobs and get asymptotically close to 100% of the calls. If it's not that good, then you've got to loop in the product people and figure out why everyone is having a hard time with whatever it is.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Generally, I'd say that calls are just another feedback channel for the product. One that FB has thus far been fine without consulting, so I can't imagine its contribution can be all that high. (Zuck also goes on to talk about the experiments they run on people with FB/Insta/WA, and woah, it is crazy unethical stuff he casually throws out there to Dwarkesh)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Still, to the point here: I'm still seeing Ai mostly as a tool/tech, not something that takes on an agency of it's own. We, the humans, are still the thing that says 'go/do/start', the prime movers (to borrow a long held and false bit of ancient physics). The AIs aren't initiating things, and it seems to a large extent, we're not going to want them to do so. Not out of a sense of doom or lack-of-greed, but simply as we're more interested in working at the edge of the fractal.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884348"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zelphirkalt 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Not to discredit anything you wrote, but:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;"I'm still seeing Ai mostly as a tool/tech, not something that takes on an agency of it's own."&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I find that to be a highly ironic thing. It basically says AI is not AI. Which we all know it is not yet, but then we can simply say it: The current crop of "AI" is not actually AI. It is not intelligence. It is a kind of huge encoded, non-transparent dictionary.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880357"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Maxion 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;As someone who has been involved with customer support (on the in-house tech side) the very vast majority of contacts to a CS team will be very inane or extremely inane. If you can automate away the lowest tier of support with LLMs you'll improve response times for not just the simple questions but also for the hard ones.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880712"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;pclmulqdq 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I have had the problem with customer support that about 90% of the calls/chats I have placed should have been automated (on their side), and the remaining 10% needed escalation beyond the "customer service" escalation ladder. In America, sadly, that means one of two things: (1) you call a friend who works there or (2) you have your lawyer send a demand letter requesting something rather inane.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880433"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;wslh 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I agree with that common pattern but even without [current] AI there were ways to automate/improve the lowest tier: very often I don't find my basic questions in the typical corporation's FAQ.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884330"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zelphirkalt 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I usually assume, that it is, because they do not want to answer those basic questions or want to hide the answers. For example some shop. No answer found in the FAQ how refunds work. Instant sus.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885712"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Garlef 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I like the analogy of the fractal boundaries.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But there's also consolidation happening: Not every branch that is initially explored is still meaningful a few years later.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(At least that's what I got from reading old mathematical texts: People really delved deeply into some topics that are nowadays just subsumed by more convenient - or maybe trendy - machinery)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886181"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;begueradj 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Let's watch your mood when AI answers your call.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885670"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;PunchTornado 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Weird to find out that some people still believe a thing that guy says.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887050"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;gessha 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Where’s my free internet to migrants, Zuck?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885989"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;odiroot 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is like a mini parallel of the industrial revolution.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;A lot of places starting with a large and unskilled workforce, getting into e.g. textile industry (which brings better RoI than farming). Then the automation arrives but it leaves a lot of people jobless (still being unskilled) while there's new jobs in maintaining the machinery etc.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886229"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sanderjd 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Isn't this literally just "productivity growth". You (and I think the article) are describing the ability to do more work with the same number of people, which seems like the economic definition of productivity.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886754"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;eagerpace 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;If we explain the same thing with different words then the marketing team can spin it to be more important than it really is.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879651"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;toxik 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I don't know about lawyering, but with engineering research, I can now ask ChatGPT's Deep Research to do a literature review on any topic. This used to take time and effort.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886467"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;camdenreslink 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;If you don't know about lawyering, then how do you know if the literature review is any good? It's the same thing as a non-programmer asking an LLM to vibe code an application. They have no idea about the quality.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892459"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;rainonmoon 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I think the point with most applications of LLMs is that the users don’t care if it’s good, only if it’s good enough. How much despair this induces is down to your bias for whatever subject is being reduced.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885378"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;PeterStuer 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;We have an infinite capacity in 'making' work. It just shifts from real productivity to make-work overhead.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Pfiefdoms and empires will be maintained.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881368"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;f_allwein 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;The Productivity Paradox is officially a thing. Maybe that’s what you’re thinking of?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Productivity_paradox&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884125"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tom_m 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Definitely. When computers came out, jobs increased. When the Internet became widely used, jobs increased. AI is simply another tool.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The sad part is, do you think we'll see this productivity gain as an opportunity to stop the culture of over working? I don't think so. I think people will expect more from others because of AI.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If AI makes employees twice as efficient, do you think companies will decrease working hours or cut their employment in half? I don't think so. It's human nature to want more. If 2 is good, 4 is surely better.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So instead of reducing employment, companies will keep the same number of employees because that's already factored into their budget. Now they get more output to better compete with their competitors. To reduce staff would be to be at a disadvantage.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So why do we hear stories about people being let go? AI is currently a scapegoat for companies that were operating inefficiently and over-hired. It was already going to happen. AI just gave some of these larger tech companies a really good excuse. They weren't exactly going to admit their make a mistake and over-hired, now were they? Nope. AI was the perfect excuse.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As all things, it's cyclical. Hiring will go up again. AI boom will bust. On to the next thing. One thing is for certain though, we all now have a fancy new calculator.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886231"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sztanko 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Well, I think productivity gains should correlate with stock price growth. If we want stock prices to increase exponentially, sales must also grow exponentially, which means we need to become exponentially more productive. We can stop that — or we can stop tying company profitability to stock prices, which is already happening to some extent. And when we talk about 'greedy shareholders,' remember that often means pension funds - essentially our savings and our hope for a decent retirement, assuming productivity continues to grow exponentially.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43954060"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tom_m 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't think we can stop that unfortunately.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Stock prices are tied to company profitability. That's how it works. In part. The other part is called over valued. That happens more and more.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But I mean, nothing new of course. Sometimes it's a scheme too. Pump and dump.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884286"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;BobbyTables2 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Copilot found this based on your description:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://impact.economist.com/projects/responsible-innovation...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880627"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jvanderbot 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;You either believe that companies are trying to grow as much as possible within their current budget, or not.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Automation is one way to do that.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879697"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;yieldcrv 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;15 years ago I created my own LLC, work experience from some contracts, and had a friend answer the reference checks&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I skipped over junior positions for the most part&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don’t see that not working now&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885862"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lazide 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;When the economic reports say ‘gains were due to improvements in economic efficiency’ that is exactly what they are describing.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885860"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;begueradj 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Without junior positions there is no future senior positions.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885865"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lazide 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Which works great for current seniors trying to continue getting paid, eh?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892472"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;rainonmoon 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I think this is a feature rather than a bug for AI advocates who ultimately dream of a day when they can do away with pesky things like labor forces and be a CEO of their own rentier-capitalist empire without hassle. Employees are just a vestigial obstacle holding down the brilliant visionaries at the top.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879790"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;breppp 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Bullshit Jobs, both the article and the subsequent book explore this theme a lot&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://libcom.org/article/phenomenon-bullshit-jobs-david-gr...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887937"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;rcxdude 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think this idea generally doesn't bear out, at least as described in the book. For the most part, the kinds of jobs that are potentially actually mostly bullshit, are generally not considered it by those who do them, while those that he would characterise as just "shit jobs" will generally have a high percentage of percieved bullshit by those who work them.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I am amenable to the idea that there is a lot of wasted pointless work, but not to the idea that there's some kayfabe arrangement where everyone involved thinks it's pointless but pretends otherwise, I think generally most people around such work have actually convinced themselves it's important.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880387"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;PeterStuer 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Read the article. The book is just a long boring elongation without new content.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880675"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;breppp 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I do not agree, I think the book is much more interesting than the article. For example the type of jobs such as Box Tickers and Flunkies, as well some really interesting anecdotes&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885438"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;PeterStuer 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Loved the article. Bought the book. I put it down before halfway as it was poorly written longform pagefilling. If it came out today I would totally understand someone calling AI slop on it. "Here's my popular article, re-write it book lenght for me".&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880556"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lsy 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I feel like people in the comments are misunderstanding the findings in the article. It’s not that people save time with AI and then turn that time to novel tasks; it’s that perceived savings from using AI are nullified by new work which is created by the usage of AI: verification of outputs, prompt crafting, cheat detection, debugging, whatever.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This seems observationally true in the tech industry, where the world’s best programmers and technologists are tied up fiddling with transformers and datasets and evals so that the world’s worst programmers can slap together temperature converters and insecure twitter clones, and meanwhile the quality of the consumer software that people actually use is in a nosedive.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884776"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;01100011 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;The other night I was too tired to code so I decided to try vibe coding a test framework for the C/C++ API I help maintain. I've tried this a couple times so far with poor results but I wanted to try again. I used Claude 3.5 IIRC.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The AI was surprisingly good at filling in some holes in my specification. It generated a ton of valid C++ code that actually compiled(except it omitted the necessary #includes). I built and ran it and... the output was completely wrong.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;OK, great. Now I have a few hundred lines of C++ I need to read through and completely understand to see why it's incorrect.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't think it will be a complete waste of time because the exercise spurred my thinking and showed me some interesting ways to solve the problem, but as far as saving me a bunch of time, no. In fact it may actually cost me more time trying to figure out what it's doing.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;With all due respect to folks working on web and phone apps, I keep getting the feeling that AI is great for high level, routine sorts of problems and still mostly useless for systems programming.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886068"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sensanaty 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; With all due respect to folks working on web and phone apps, I keep getting the feeling that AI is great for high level, routine sorts of problems and still mostly useless for systems programming.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As one of those folks, no it's pretty bad in that world as well. For menial crap it's a great time saver, but I'd never in a million years do the "vibe coding" thing, especially not with user-facing things or especially not for tests. I don't mind it as a rubber duck though.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think the problem is that there's 2 groups of users, the technical ones like us and then the managers and C-levels etc. They see it spit out a hundred lines of code in a second and as far as they know (and care) it looks good, not realizing that someone now has to spend their time reviewing the 100 lines of code, plus having the burden of maintenance of those 100 lines going into the future. But, all they see is a way to get the pesky, expensive devs replaced or at least a chance squeeze more out of them. The system is so flashy and impressive looking, and you can't even blame them for falling for the marketing and hype, after all that's what all the AIs are being sold as, omnipotent and omniscient worker replacers.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Watching my non-technical CEO "build" things with AI was enlightening. He prompts it for something fairly simple, like a TODO List application. What it spits out works for the most part, but the only real "testing" he does is clicking on things once or twice and he's done and satisfied, now convinced that AI can solve literally everything you throw at it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;However if he were testing the solution as a proper dev would, he'd see that the state updates break after a certain amount of clicks, and that the list was glitching out sometimes, and that adding things breaks on scroll and overflows the viewport, and so on. These are all real examples of an "app" he made by vibe coding, and after playing around with it myself for all of 3 minutes I noticed all these issues and more in his app.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888502"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;01100011 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;You have my sympathy. At least in systems programming there is little desire of a manager to, idk, vibe code an adaptation layer for a new architecture or something.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886216"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sneak 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;For esoteric config files (such as ntp or chrony) that would take me 10-15 mins to write and tweak, it gets done in seconds.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Over time, that adds up.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For simple utility programs and scripts, it also does a great job.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885193"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;imiric 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; With all due respect to folks working on web and phone apps, I keep getting the feeling that AI is great for high level, routine sorts of problems and still mostly useless for systems programming.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As someone working on routine problems in mainstream languages where training data is abundant, LLMs are not even great for that. Sure, they can output a bunch of code really quickly that on the surface appears correct, but on closer inspection it often uses nonexistent APIs, the logic is subtly wrong or convoluted for no reason, it does things you didn't tell it to do or ignores things you did, it has security issues and other difficult to spot bugs, and so on.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The experience is pretty much what you summed up. I've also used Claude 3.5 the most, though all other SOTA model have the same issues.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;From there, you can go into the loop of copy/pasting errors to the LLM or describing the issues you did see in the hopes that subsequent iterations will fix them, but this often results in more and different issues, and it's usually a complete waste of time.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You can also go in and fix the issues yourself, but if you're working with an unfamiliar API in an unfamiliar domain, then you still have to do the traditional task of reading the documentation and web searching, which defeats the purpose of using an LLM to begin with.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;To be clear: I don't think LLMs are a useless technology. I've found them helpful at debugging specific issues, and implementing small and specific functionality (i.e. as a glorified autocomplete). But any attempts of implementing large chunks of functionality, having them follow specifications, etc., have resulted in much more time and effort spent on my part than if I had done the work the traditional way.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The idea of "vibe coding" seems completely unrealistic to me. I suspect that all developers doing this are not even checking whether the code does what they want to, let alone reviewing the code for any issues. As long as it compiles they consider it a success. Which is an insane way of working that will lead to a flood of buggy and incomplete applications, increasing the dissatisfaction of end users in our industry, and possibly causing larger effects not unlike the video game crash of 1983 or the dot-com bubble.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886353"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Jare 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; The idea of "vibe coding" seems completely unrealistic to me.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's what happens to "AI art" too. Anyone as a non-artist can create images in seconds, and they will look kind of valid or even good to them, much like those "vibe coded" things look to CEOs.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;AI is great at generating crap really fast and efficiently. Not so good at generating stuff that anyone actually needs and which must actually work. But we're also discovering that a lot of what we consume can be crap and be acceptable. An endless stream of generated synthwave in the background while I work is pretty decent. People wanting to decorate their podcasts or tiktoks with something that nobody is going to pay attention to, AI art can do that.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For vibe coding, right now it seems that prototyping and functional mockups seems to be quite a viable use.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887721"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sanderjd 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; You can also go in and fix the issues yourself, but if you're working with an unfamiliar API in an unfamiliar domain, then you still have to do the traditional task of reading the documentation and web searching, which defeats the purpose of using an LLM to begin with.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Oh, see, this is where I disagree. I think it's incredibly helpful to get past the "blank page". Yes, I do usually end up going and reading docs, but I also have a much better sense of what I'm looking for in the docs and can use them more effectively.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I feel like this is the same pattern with every new tool. Google didn't replace reference books, but it helped me discover the right ones to read much more easily. Similarly, LLM based tools are not replacing reference texts, but they're making it easier for me to spin up on new things; by the time I start reading the docs now, I'm usually past the point of needing to read the intro.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886268"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;runeks 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; With all due respect to folks working on web and phone apps, I keep getting the feeling that AI is great for high level, routine sorts of problems and still mostly useless for systems programming.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I agree. AI is great for stuff that's hard to figure out but easy to verify.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For example, I wanted to know how to lay out something a certain way in SwiftUI and asked Gemini. I copied what it suggested, ran it and the layout was correct. I would have spent a lot more time searching and reading stuff compared to this.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886490"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;MSFT_Edging 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I wish I had an ongoing counter for the amount of times I've asked chatgpt to "generate me python code that will output x data similar to xxd".&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Its a snippet I've written a few times before to debug data streams, but it's always annoying to get alignment just right.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I feel like that is the sweet spot for AI, to generate actual snippets of routine code that has no bearing on security or functionality, but lets you keep thinking about the problem at hand while it does that 10 minutes of busy work.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886370"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sanderjd 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yeah, I similarly have not had great success for creating entire systems / applications for exactly this reason. I have had no success at all in not needing to go in and understand what it wrote, and when I do that, I find it largely needs to be rewritten. But I have a lot more success when I'm integrating it into the work I'm doing.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I do know people who seem to be having more success with the "vibecoding" workflow on the front end though.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887435"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;getnormality 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; OK, great. Now I have a few hundred lines of C++ I need to read through and completely understand to see why it's incorrect.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For a time, we can justify this kind of extra work by imagining that it is an upfront investment. I think that is what a lot of people are doing right now. It remains to be seen when AI-assisted labor is still a net positive after we stop giving it special grace as something that will pay off a lot later if we spend a lot of time on it now.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885131"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;panstromek 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; OK, great. Now I have a few hundred lines of C++ I need to read through and completely understand to see why it's incorrect.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think it's often better to just skip this and delete the code. The cool thing about those agents is that the cost of trying this out is extremely cheap, so you don't have to overthink it and if it looks incorrect, just revert it and try something else.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I've been experimenting with Junie for past few days, and had very positive experience. It wrote a bunch of tests for me that I've been postponing for quite some time it was mostly correct from a single sentence prompt. Sometimes it does something incorrect, but I usually just revert it and move on, try something else later. There's definitely a sweet spot for things tasks it does well and you have to experiment a bit to find it out.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884986"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;delusional 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Personally, having worked in professional enterprise software for ~7 years now I've come to a pretty hard conclusion.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Most software should not exist.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's not even meant in the tasteful "Its a mess" way. From a purely money making efficiency standpoint upwards of 90% of the code I've written in this time has not meaningfully contributed back to the enterprise, and I've tried really hard to get that number lower. Mind you, this is professional software. If you consider the vibe coder guys, I'll estimate that number MUCH higher.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It just feels like the whole way we've fit computing into the world is misaligned. We spent days building UIs that dont help the people we serve and that break at the first change to the process, and because of the support burden of that UI we never get to actually automate anything.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I still think computers are very useful to humanity, but we have forgot how to use them.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885269"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;SideburnsOfDoom 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Upwards of 90% ... of software should not exist ... it has not meaningfully contributed back to the enterprise&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is Sturgeon's law. (1)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And yes, but it's hard or impossible to identify the useful 10% ahead of time. It emerges after the fact.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885058"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;thyrsus 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;And not only that, but most &amp;gt;&amp;gt;changes&amp;lt;&amp;lt; to software shouldn't happen, especially if it's user facing. Half my dread in visiting support web sites is that they've completely rearranged yet again, and the same thing I've wanted five times requires a fifth 30 minutes figuring out where they put it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886945"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nyarlathotep_ 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; "Personally, having worked in professional enterprise software for ~7 years now I've come to a pretty hard conclusion.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Most software should not exist.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's not even meant in the tasteful "Its a mess" way. From a purely money making efficiency standpoint upwards of 90% of the code I've written in this time has not meaningfully contributed back to the enterprise, and I've tried really hard to get that number lower. Mind you, this is professional software. If you consider the vibe coder guys, I'll estimate that number MUCH higher."&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I've worked on countless projects at this point that seemed to serve no purpose, even at the outset, and had no plan to even project cost savings/profit, except, at best some hand-waving approximation.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Even worse, many companies are completely uninterested in even conceptualizing operating costs for a given solution. They get sold on some cloud thing cause "OpEx" or whatever, and then spend 100s of hours a month troubleshooting intricate convoluted architectures that accomplish nothing more than a simple relational database and web server would.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Sure, the cloud bill is a lower number, but if your staff is burning hours every week fighting `npm audit` issues, and digging through CloudWatch for errors between 13 Lambda functions, what did you "save"?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I've even worked on more than one project that existed specifically to remove manual processes (think printing and inspecting documents) to "save time." Sure, now shop floor workers/assembly workers inspect less papers manually, but now you need a whole other growth of technical staff to troubleshoot crap constantly.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Oh and the company(ies) don't have in-house staff to maintain the thing, and have no interest in actually hiring so they write huge checks to a consulting company to "maintain" the stuff at a cost often orders of magnitude higher than it'd cost to hire staff that would actually own the project(s). And these people have a conflict of interest to maximize profit, so they want to "fix" things and etc etc.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think a lot of this is the outgrowth of the 2010s where every company was going to be a "tech company" and cargo-culted processes without understanding the purpose or rationale, and lacking competent people to properly scope and deliver solutions that work, are on time and under budget, and tangibly deliver value.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884297"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;acedTrex 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; where the world’s best programmers and technologists are tied up fiddling with transformers and datasets and evals so that the world’s worst programmers can slap together temperature converters and insecure twitter clones&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This statement is incredibly accurate&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884760"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chii 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; slap together temperature converters and insecure twitter clones&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;because those "best programmers" don't want to be making temperature converters nor twitter clones (unless they're paid mega bucks). This enables the low paid "worst" programmers to do those jobs for peanuts.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's an acceptable outcome imho.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885842"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lionkor 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Let's assume that I'm closer to best programmers than worst programmers, for a second; I definitely will build a temperature converter, at my usual hourly rate. I don't think we should consider any task "beneath us", doing so detaches us from reality, makes us entitled, and ultimately stumps our growth&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885052"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;delusional 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;But do we actually need more temperature converters? Maybe it would be better if they were hard to make such that people didn't waste their time, and the bad programmers went out and did some yard work.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886409"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;walleeee 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I think it might be more urgent for the star-AI'd (ha) programmers to go out and touch grass. Do we really need more people in that pile right now? There is a lot of mundane but interesting/challenging work out there, humming along beneath the hype cycle of the day. It may not pay 300k or satisfy utopian urges, but then again, you should probably be suspicious if someone hands you fistfuls of money and tells you you're saving the world&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886358"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sanderjd 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think the software quality nosedive significantly predates generative AI.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think it's too early to say whether AI is exacerbating the problem (though I'm sympathetic to the view that it is) or improving it, or just maintaining the status quo.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890435"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Ancalagon 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Imho it’s going to worsen things unless the models and their toolsets significantly improve&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885420"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Barrin92 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;it’s that perceived savings from using AI are nullified by new work which is created by the usage of AI:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I mean, isn't that obvious looking at economic output and growth? The Shopify CEO recently published a memo in which he claimed that high achievers saw "100x growth". Odd that this isn't visible in the Spotify market cap. Did they fire 99% of their engineers instead? Maybe the memo was AI written too.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Are there any 5 man software companies that do the work of 50? I haven't seen them. I wonder how long this can go on with the real world macro data so divorced from what people have talked themselves into.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883941"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ausbah 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;the state of consumer software is already so bad &amp;amp; LLMs are trained on a good chunk of that so their output can possible produce worse software right? /s&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879484"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;JCM9 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Modern AI tools are amazing, but they’re amazing like spell check was amazing when it came out. Does it help with menial tasks? Yes, but it creates a new baseline that everyone has and just moves the bar. Theres scant evidence that we’re all going to just sit on a beach while AI runs your company anytime soon.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There’s little sign of any AI company managing to build something that doesn’t just turn into a new baseline commodity. Most of these AI products are also horribly unprofitable, which is another reality that will need to be faced sooner rather than later.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879583"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;amarant 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's got me wondering: do any of my hard work actually matter? Or is it all just pointless busy-work invented since the industrial revolution to create jobs for everyone, when in reality we would be fine if like 5% of society worked while the rest slacked off? Don't think we'd have as many videogames, but then again, we would have time to play, which I would argue is more valuable than games.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;To paraphrase Lee Iacocca: We must stop and ask ourselves, how much videogames do we really need?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880109"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;randcraw 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; It's got me wondering: do any of my hard work actually matter?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I recently retired from 40 years in software-based R&amp;amp;D and have been wondering the same thing. Wasn't it true that 95% of my life's work was thrown away after a single demo or a disappointingly short period of use?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And I think the answer is yes, but this is just the cost of working in an information economy. Ideas are explored and adopted only until the next idea replaces it or the surrounding business landscape shifts yet again. Unless your job is in building products like houses or hammers (which evolve very slowly or are too expensive to replace), the cost of doing of business today is a short lifetime for any product; they're replaced in increasingly fast cycles, useful only until they're no longer competitive. And this evanescent lifetime is especially the case for virtual products like software.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The essence of software is to prototype an idea for info processing that has utility only until the needs of business change. Prototypes famously don't last, and increasingly today, they no longer live long enough even to work out the bugs before they're replaced with yet another idea and its prototype that serves a new or evolved mission.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Will AI help with this? Only if it speeds up the cycle time or reduces development cost, and both of those have a theoretical minimum, given the time needed to design and review any software product has an irreducible minimum cost. If a human must use the software to implement a business idea then humans must be used to validate the app's utility, and that takes time that can't be diminished beyond some point (just as there's an inescapable need to test new drugs on animals since biology is a black box too complex to be simulated even by AI). Until AI can simulate the user, feedback from the user of new/revised software will remain the choke point on the rate at which new business ideas can be prototyped by software.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884492"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lurk2 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Ideas are explored and adopted only until the next idea replaces it or the surrounding business landscape shifts yet again.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;“Creative destruction is a concept in economics that describes a process in which new innovations replace and make obsolete older innovations.”&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_destruction&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think about this a lot with various devices I owned over the years that were made obsolete by smartphones. Portable DVD players and digital cameras are the two that stand out to me; each of them cost hundreds of dollars but only had a marketable life of about 5 years. To us these are just products on a shelf, but every one of them had a developer, an assembly line, and a logistics network behind them; all of these have to be redeployed whenever a product is made obsolete.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884395"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;vemom 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Most of a chefs meals are now poo. Memories of those meals survive but eventually they will fade too.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There is a lot of value in being the stepping stone to tomorrow. Not everyone builds a pyramid.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884097"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zeroonetwothree 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I still have code running in production I wrote 20 years ago. Sure, it’s a small fraction, but arguably that’s the whole point.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881180"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dehrmann 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;So... to what extent is software a durable good?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881737"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;staunton 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Who said it's durable?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43882282"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dehrmann 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;This is what makes software interesting. It theoretically works forever and has zero marginal production cost, but it's durability is driven by business requirements and hardware and OS changes. Some software might have a 20 year life. Some might only be 6 months.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884404"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;vemom 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;A house is way more durable. My house is older than all software and I expect it to outlive most software written (either today or ever). Except voyager perhaps!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879637"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;npteljes 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;do any of my hard work actually matter?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes... basically in life, you have to find the definition of "to matter" that you can strongly believe in. Otherwise everything feels aimless, the very life itself.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The rest of what you ponder in your comment is the same. And I'd like to add that baselines shifted a lot over the years of civilization. I like to think about one specific example: painkillers. Painkillers were not used during medical procedures in a widespread manner until some 150 years ago, maybe even later. Now, it's much less horrible to participate in those procedures, for everyone involved really, and also the outcomes are better just for this factor - because the patients moves around less while anesthetized.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But even this is up for debate. All in all, it really boils down to what the individual feels like it's a worthy life. Philosophy is not done yet.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879754"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;amarant 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well, from a societal point of view, meaningful work would be work that is necessary to either maintain or push that baseline.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Perhaps my initial estimate of 5% of the workforce was a bit optimistic, say 20% of current workforce necessary to have food, healthcare, and maybe a few research facilities focused on improving all of the above?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879809"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;npteljes 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I'm sure we could organize it if that would be the goal.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884852"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nradov 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;No, it would be impossible to organize. Planned economies have always failed at that scale, and always will. AI won't change that reality.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885341"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;npteljes 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm pretty sure it's not impossible, but rather just improbable, because of how human nature works. In other words, we are not incentivized to do that, and that is why we don't do that, and even when we did, it always fell apart.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You are very right that AI will not change this. As neither did any other productivity improvement in the past (directly).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887526"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nradov 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;It's impossible, and not just because of human nature. Even if humans were more cooperative or altruistic, it's impossible to plan for disruptive innovations.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879866"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;amarant 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Right? So what's the current goal, and why is it better than this one?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43882526"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;npteljes 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Power itself seems to be the goal, and the reasons for it is human DNA I think. I have doubts that we can build anything different than this (on a sufficiently long run).&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883976"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;amarant 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Power might be a goal for individuals, but surely it's not the goal for society as a whole?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Does society as a whole even have a goal currently? I don't really think it does. Like do ideologists even exist today?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I wish society was working towards some kind of idea of utopia, but I'm not convinced we're even trying for that. Are we?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885324"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;npteljes 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I don't feel like we have goals as a society either.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879713"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jajko 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Mine doesn't, and I am fine with that, never needed such validation. I derive fulfillment from my personal life and achievements and passions there, more than enough. With that optics, office politics and promotion rat race and what people do in them just makes me smile. Seeing how otherwise smart folks ruin (or miss out) their actual lives and families in pursuit of excellence in a very narrow direction, often hard underappreciated by employers and not rewarded adequately. I mean, at certain point you either grok the game and optimize, or you don't.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The work brings over time modest wealth, allows me and my family to live in long term safe place (Switzerland) and builds a small reserve for bad times (or inheritance, early retirement etc. this is Europe, no need to save up for kids education or potentially massive healthcare bills). Don't need more from life.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879967"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;qwerpy 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Agree. Now I watch the rat racers with bemusement while I put in just enough to get a paycheck. I have enough time and energy to participate deeply in my children’s upbringing.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I’m in America so the paychecks are very large, which helps with private school, nanny, stay at home wife, and the larger net worth needed (health care, layoff risk, house in a nicer neighborhood). I’ve been fortunate, so early retirement is possible now in my early 40s. It really helps with being able to detach from work, when I don’t even care if I lose my job. I worry for my kids though. It won’t be as easy for them. AI and relentless human resources optimization will make tech a harder place to thrive.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884655"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;vasco 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Unless you propose slaves how are you going to choose the 5%?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Who in their right mind would work when 95 out of 100 people around them are slacking off all day? Unless you pay them really well. So well that they prefer to work than to slack off. But then the slackers will want nicer things to do in their free time that only the workers can afford. And then you'd end up at the start.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892482"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;amarant 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Easy solution: everyone works 5%, which works out to 2 hours per week.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Tho 5% is likely unfeasibly low, we would probably need at least twice that&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884705"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chii 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; when in reality we would be fine if like 5% of society worked while the rest slacked off?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;if that were really true, who gets to decide who those 5% that gets to do work, while the rest leeches off them?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Coz i certainly would not want to be in that 5%.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880927"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Clubber 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;It's got me wondering: do any of my hard work actually matter?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It mattered enough for someone to pay you money to do it, and that money put food on the table and clothes on your body and a roof over your head and allowed you to contribute to larger society through paying taxes.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Is it the same as discovering that E = MC2 or Jonas Salk's contributions? No, but it's not nothing either.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881463"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;cortesoft 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Don't think we'd have as many videogames, but then again, we would have time to play, which I would argue is more valuable than games.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Would we have fewer video games? If all our basic needs were met and we had a lot of free time, more people might come together to create games together for free.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I mean, look at how much free content (games, stories, videos, etc) is created now, when people have to spend more than half their waking hours working for a living. If people had more free time, some of them would want to make video games, and if they weren’t constrained by having to make money, they would be open source, which would make it even easier for someone else to make their own game based on the work.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885154"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;thyrsus 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Nope. The current system may be misdirecting 95% of labor, but until we have sufficiently modeled all of nature to provide perfect health and brought world peace, there is work to do.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879734"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Phanteaume 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;You're on the right path, don't fall back into the global gaslight. Go deeper.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;http://youtube.com/watch?v=9lDTdLQnSQo&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884151"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;hliyan 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I've been thinking similarly. Bertrand Russell once said: "there are two types of work. One, moving objects on or close to the surface of the Earth. Two, telling other people to do so". Most of us work in buildings that don't actually manufacture, process or anything. Instead, we process information that describes manufacturing and transport. Or we create information for people to consume when they are not working (entertainment). Only a small faction of human beings are actually producing things that are necessary for physiological survival. Rest of us are at best, helping them optimize that process, or at worst, leeching off of them in the name of "management" of their work.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879743"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;kjkjadksj 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Most work is redundant and unnecessary. Take for example the classic gas station on every corner situation that often emerges. This turf war between gas providers (or their franchisees by proxy they granted a license to this location for) is not because three or four gas stations are operating at maximum capacity. No, this is 3 or 4 fisherman with a line in the river, made possible solely because inputs (real estate, gas, labor, merchandise) are cheap enough where the gas station need not ever run even close to capacity and still return a profit for the fisherman.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Who benefits from the situation? You or I who don’t have to make a u turn to get gas at this intersection, perhaps, but that is not much benefit in comparison for the opportunity cost of not having 3 prime corner lots squandered on the same single use. The clerk at the gas station for having a job available? Perhaps although maybe their labor in aggregate would have been employed in other less redundant uses that could benefit out society otherwise than selling smokes and putting $20 on 4 at 3am. The real beneficiary of this entire arrangement is the fisherman, the owner or shareholder who ultimately skims from all the pots thanks to having what is effectively a modern version of a plantation sharecropper, spending all their money in the company store and on company housing with a fig leaf of being able to choose from any number of minimum wage jobs, spend their wages in any number of national chain stores, and rent any number of increasingly investor owned property. Quite literally all owned by the same shareholders when you consider how people diversify their investments into these multiple sectors.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881017"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;senordevnyc 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;We benefit because when there’s only one gas station, they can charge more than if there are four.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883278"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;overfeed 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;It's weird to read the same HN crowd that decries monopolies and extols the virtues of competition turn around and complain about job duplication and "bullshit jobs" like marketing and advertising that arise from competition.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884477"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;oasisaimlessly 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;It's only weird if you model HN as a hivemind.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879631"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;arealaccount 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Its why executive types are all hyped about AI. Being able to code 2x more will mean they get 2x more things (roughly speaking), but the workers aren’t going to get 2x the compensation.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879650"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;npteljes 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Indeed. And AI does its work without those productivity-hindering things like need for recreation and sleep, ethical treatment, and a myriad of others. It's a new resource to exploit, and that makes everyone excited who is building on some resource.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885666"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;cylemons 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Keep in mind that competitors will also produce 2x, so even executives wont get 2x compensation&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885851"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nkrisc 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Spellcheck (and auto completion) is like AI - it solves one problem and creates another.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Now instead of misspelled words (which still happens all the time) we have incorrect words substituted in place of the correct ones.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Look at any long form article on any website these days and it will likely be riddled with errors, even on traditional news websites!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879825"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;pythonguython 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;AI can’t do our jobs today, but we’re only 2.5 years from the release of chatGPT. The performance of these models might plateau today, but we simply don’t know. If they continue to improve at the current rate for 3-5 more years, it’s hard for me to see how human input would be useful at all in engineering.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886138"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;namaria 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;And if my plane keeps the take-off acceleration up for 7 months we'd be at 95% the speed of light by then.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886705"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;HDThoreaun 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I dont think its especially unreasonable to assume that these models will continue to improve. Every year since chatGPT has seen incredible advancements, that will end eventually but why do you think it is now?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893123"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;59nadir 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Every year since chatGPT has seen incredible advancements&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Advancements in what exact areas? My time using GitHub Copilot years ago was more successful for the simple act of coding than my more recent one trying out Cursor with Claude Sonnet 3.5. I'm not really seeing what these massive advancements have been, and realistically none of these LLMs are more useful than a very, very bad junior programmer when it comes to anything that couldn't already be looked up but is simply faster to ask.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43904910"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;HDThoreaun 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; realistically none of these LLMs are more useful than a very, very bad junior programmer&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is an incredible achievement. 5 years ago chatbots and NLP AI couldnt do shit. 2 years ago they were worthless for programming. Last year they were only useful to programmers as autocomplete. Now they replace juniors. There has been obvious improvement year after year and it hasnt been minor&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886762"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;pythonguython 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I imagine many people in 1970 were incredulous that we’d have transistors with 20 nm pitch width.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880731"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;codr7 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;They will never be creative, and creativity is a pretty big deal.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881216"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;pythonguython 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;To the extent it’s measurable, LLMs are becoming more creative as the models improve. I think it’s a bold statement to say they’ll NEVER be creative. Once again, we’ll have to see. Creativity very well could be emergent from training on large datasets. But also it might not be. I recommend not speaking in such absolutes about a technology that is improving every day.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881839"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;pclmulqdq 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;"To the extent it's measurable" is very load-bearing in the semantics here. A lot of "creativity" is very hard to measure.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43882129"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;pythonguython 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I agree, and I think most people would say the current models would rank low on creativity metrics however we define them. But to the main point, I don’t see how the quality we call creativity is unique to biological computing machines vs electronic computing machines. Maybe one day we’ll conclusively declare creativity to be a human trait only, but in 2025 that is not a closed question - however it is measured.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43882985"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Jensson 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;We were talking about LLM here, not computing machines in general. LLM are trained to mimic not to produce novel things, so a person can easily think LLM wont get creative even though some computer program in the future could.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884532"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;signatoremo 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; LLM are trained to mimic not to produce novel things&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Which LLM? That’s not the purpose of training for any model that I know of.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886146"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;namaria 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Training LLMs is literally finding sets of numbers that make them better at mimicking human language.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883309"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;codr7 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Difficult to measure, but trivial to define.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Creativity means play, as in not following rules, adding something of yourself.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Something a computer just can't do.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884750"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chii 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Most software engineering jobs aren't about creativity, but about putting some requirements stated in a slightly vague fashion, and actualizing it for the stakeholder to view and review (and adjust as needed).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The areas for which creativity is required are likely related to digital media software (like SFX in movies, games, and perhaps very innovative software). In these areas, surely the software developer working there will have the creativity required.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885124"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;fullstackchris 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; but about putting some requirements stated in a slightly vague fashion, and actualizing it for the stakeholder to view and review&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;sounds like a form of creativity to me!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879785"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_heimdall 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is effectively Jevans paradox[1] in action.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The cost, in money or time, for getting certain types of work done decreases. People ramp up demand to fill the gap, "full utilization" of the workers.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Its a very old claim that the next technology will lead to a utopia where we don't have to work, or we work drastically less often. Time and again we prove that we don't actually want that.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;My hypothesis (I'm sure its not novel or unique) is that very few people know what to do with idle hands. We tend to keep stress levels high as a distraction, and tend to freak out in various ways if we find ourselves with low stress and nothing that "needs" to be done.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881775"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;n_ary 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Its a very old claim that the next technology will lead to a utopia where we don't have to work, or we work drastically less often. Time and again we prove that we don't actually want that.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It actually does but due to wrong distribution of reward gained from that tech(automation) it does not work for the common folks.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Lets take a simple example, you, me and 8 other HN users work in Bezos’ warehouse. We each work 8h/day. Suddenly a new tech comes in which can now do the same task we do and each unit of that machine can do 2-4 of our work alone. If Bezos buys 4 of the units and setting each unit to work at x2 capacity, then 8 of us now have 8h/day x 5 days x 4 weeks = 160h leisure.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Problem is, now 8 of us still need money to survive(food, rent, utilities, healthcare etc). So, according to tech utopians, 8 of us now can use 160h of free time to focus on more important and rewarding works.(See in context of all the AI peddlers, how using AI will free us to do more important and rewarding works!). But to survive my rewarding work is to do gig work or something of same effort or more hours.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So in theory, the owner controlling the automation gets more free time to attend interviews and political/social events. The people getting automated away fall downward and has to work harder to maintain their survivality. Of course, I hope our over enthusiastic brethren who are paying LLM provider for the priviledge of training their own replacements figure the equation soon and don’t get sold by the “free time to do more meaningful work” same way the Bezos warehouse gave some of us some leisure while the automation were coming online and needed some failsafe for a while. :)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898719"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;buu700 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;In summary, the Luddites had a point. It doesn't mean they were ultimately correct, just that their concerns were valid.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Regardless of anyone's thoughts on genAI in particular, it's important for us as a society to consider what our economic model looks like in a future where technology breaks the assumption of near-universal employment. Maybe that's UBI. Maybe it's a system of universally accessible educational stipends and pumping public funds into venture capital. Maybe it's something else entirely.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879840"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;vjvjvjvjghv 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I think a lot of people would be fine being idle if they had a guaranteed standard of living. When I was unemployed for a while, I was pretty happy in general but stressed about money running out. Without the money issue the last thing I would want to do is to sell my time to a soulless corporation. I have enough interests to keep me busy. Work just sucks up time I would love to spend on better things.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880079"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_heimdall 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Oh for sure, I should have included that. I was thinking of people being idle by choice rather than circumstance.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884765"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chii 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; a lot of people would be fine being idle if they had a guaranteed standard of living&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;just a lot of words for "lazy" - it's built in to living organisms.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The whole economic system today is constructed to ensure that one would suffer from being "lazy". And this would be the case until post-scarcity.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885055"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;kubb 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Lazy is a pejorative term used to chastise people in a culture that promotes activity even if it’s pointless.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886084"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_heimdall 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I would have said lazy rather than idle if that what I meant.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For most people lazy implies that there are things you things you really ought to get done but you're choosing to avoid doing it to the point where its a problem that whatever the thing is still isn't taken care of.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Idle just means you don't feel like you have anything that needs to be done, you aren't avoiding things to the point that it causes a problem.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Of course our economic system prefers people to be "fully utilized" rather than idle, but who cares? I don't owe an economic system anything, we could change the system whenever we want, and ultimately an economy is only useful to analyze the comparative output that already happened - it has nothing to do with the present or future.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879891"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Retric 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Food production is a class case where once productivity is high enough you simply get fewer farmers.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We are currently a long way from that kind of change as current AI tools suck by comparison to literally 1,000x increases in productivity. So, in well under 100 years programming could become extremely niche.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880096"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_heimdall 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;We are seeing an interesting limit in the food case though.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We increased production and needed fewer farmers, but we now have so few farmers that most people have very little idea of what food really is, where it comes from, or what it takes to run our food system.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Higher productivity is good to a point, but eventually it risks becoming too fragile.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880235"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;master_crab 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;100%. In fact, this exact scenario is playing out in the cattle industry.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Screwworm, a parasite that kills cattle in days is making a comeback. And we are less prepared for it this time because previously (the 1950s-1970s) we had a lot more labor in the industry to manually check each head of cattle. Bloomberg even called it out specifically.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Ranchers also said the screwworm would be much deadlier if it were to return, because of a lack of labor. “We can’t fight it like we did in the ’60s, we can’t go out and rope every head of cattle and put a smear on every open wound,” Schumann said.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2025-05-02/deadly-sc...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881041"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;senordevnyc 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;This sounds like the kind of labor problem that could quickly be solved by hiring more people. So really the worst case here is that beef will cost a little more for a little while. Hardly an existential threat.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43882176"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_heimdall 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Who will they hire though? Cattle operations are often in very rural areas, and we are putting up huge blockers for immigrants and migrant workers.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884775"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chii 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;you're conflating a political issue with a problem having zero possible solutions.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;A stroke of the pen will fix any and all political issues, if/when the political desire comes about.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Vs a problem with no solution - no pen will fix any of it, regardless of political will.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886123"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_heimdall 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Its not just a problem needing a signature. We have the policies we have today because a lot of people want them, or at least agree with the general direction.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If the right person signs a change that magically fixes a labor shortage in a rural area we're right back to where we were, and much of the public would be up in arms about it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(This doesn't actually reflect my opinion on immigration laws to be clear, just my view on where we are today in the US)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887661"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;senordevnyc 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;If beef doubles or triples in price, the political incentives will change rapidly.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I’m not saying this parasite isn’t a potential problem, but it’s not existential by any stretch. There are a thousand more intractable and consequential problems facing us right now.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885026"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;safety1st 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This doesn't sound like an accurate description of US agriculture. Just off the top of my head&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* The US is not producing enough food - it's now a net food importer&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* The increasing problems we are seeing in the food supply chain are usually tied to producers cutting costs and padding margins&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Matt Stoller has gone into this at length - https://www.thebignewsletter.com/p/is-america-losing-the-abi...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So I mean it could depend on your definition of productivity, if anything that increases shareholder returns at the expense of a good product or robust supply chain is considered more "productivity," sure. Just as monopolies are the most "productive" businesses ever for their shareholders, but generally awful for everyone else, and are not what most people would think of as productive.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The human definition of productivity is - less inputs producing more and better outputs.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The cartel doublespeak definition is - the product got worse and the margins improved, which seems to describe US Big Ag at present&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889007"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Retric 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;In case you are concerned that’s wildly misleading.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The US exports lots of cheap food and imports expensive foods like wine, beer, high end cheese, candies. In terms of calories / nutrition the US is a huge net food exporter but we like our luxury chocolates etc.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;American companies love to setup cheap factories overseas even if they use US corn syrup to make a beverage the trade balance is based on corn syrup not the value of the manufactured soda. Meanwhile in the other direction we’re importing cans of soda manufactured in other countries.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43920279"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;safety1st 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's interesting info but I don't agree with the information being 'wildly misleading'&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- If people wish to consume expensive, luxury foods they will do so, and that's OK and valid, even during a political crisis. America endeavoring to produce more of these luxury products is good for the country's economy and makes self-sufficiency easier if a crisis arises.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- Maybe those factories should be on US soil, also good for self-sufficiency. Maybe not so good for international conglomerates - I don't care, they've had a great run, time for them to work for the people again.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Enjoyable food existed before the current era of globalization. The brands might change, but it will exist after that era is wound down. Let's not pretend otherwise.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886109"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_heimdall 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;At least in US agriculture, when they speak of productivity they generally refer to pounds per acre for crops. For livestock it's a bit less clear, they sometimes refer to pounds of feed to final live weight. You generally have to schedule a slaughter day months out and you estimate the final weight, you don't get paid as well if you are too far off the weight in either direction. Its less common generally, but in the cattle industry I've heard the accuracy of hitting that targets talked about as productivity.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I agree with you on the double speak though, really I think its just a lack of the public really understanding the meaning given to "productive" in the industry though. The industry doesn't hide what it means by the word, most just don't care about any version of productive that measures things like nutrient value, sustainability, soil health, animal welfare, etc.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880016"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;quantumHazer 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Food production is a class case where once productivity is high enough you simply get fewer farmers.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes, but.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There are more jobs in other fields that are adjacent to food production, particularly in distribution. Middle class does not existed and retail workers are now a large percentage of workers in most parts of the world.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880718"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Retric 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Sure, but when farmers where 90% of the labor force many of the remaining 10% also related to food distribution and production, a village blacksmith was mostly in support of farming, salt production/transport for food storage, etc.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Food is just a smaller percentage of the economy overall.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880861"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_heimdall 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Was there ever a time when 90% of labor was in farming and we had anything resembling an economy?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I would have assumed that if 90% of people are farming its largely subsistence and any trade or happened on a much more local scale, potentially without any proper currency involved.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880971"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Retric 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Globally perhaps not as fishing and hunting have been major food sources in antiquity especially when you include North America etc. Similarly slavery meant a significant portion of the population was in effect outside the economy.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That said, there’s been areas where 90% of the working population was at minimum helping with the harvest up until the Middle Ages.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881638"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;anticensor 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Did you type in an additional zero there?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881877"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Retric 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Nope, where a family might struggle to efficiently manage 50 acres under continuous cultivation even just a few hundred years ago, now it’s not uncommon to see single family farms with 20,000 acres each of which is several times more productive.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It’s somewhat arbitrary where you draw the line historically but it’s not just maximum productivity worth remembering crops used to fail from drought etc far more frequently.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Small hobby farms are also a thing these days, but that’s a separate issue.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43882193"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_heimdall 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;For those 20,000 acre farms, by what measure are they more productive?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In my experience they're very productive by poundage yield, but horribly unproductive when it comes to inputs required, chemicals used, biodiversity, soil health, etc.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43882904"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Retric 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;We’re looking at hours of labor per lb of food.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The difference is so extreme vs historic methods you can skip pesticides, avoid harming soil health or biodiversity vs traditional methods etc without any issues here and still be talking 1,000x.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Though really growing crops for human consumption is something of a rounding error here. It’s livestock, biofuels, cotton, organic plastics, wood, flowers, etc that’s consuming the vast majority of output from farms.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883814"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_heimdall 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;If that's the metric, sure we have gotten very good at producing more pounds of food per human hour of labor.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Two things worth noting though, pounds of food say little about the nutritional value to consumers. I don't have hood links handy so I won't make any specific claims, just worth considering if weight is the right metric.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As far as human labor hours goes, we've gotten very good at outsourcing those costs. Farm labor hours ignores all the hours put in to their off-farm inputs (machinery, pesticides and fertilizers, seed production, etc). We also leverage an astronomical amount of (mostly) diesel fuel to power all of it. The human labor hours are small, but I've seen estimates of a single barrel of oil being comparable to 25,000 hours of human labor or 12.5 years of full employment. I'd be interested to do the math now, but I expect we have seen a fraction of that 25,000x multiplier materialize in the reduction of farm hours worked over the last century (or back to the industrial revolution).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884142"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Dylan16807 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; pounds of food say little about the nutritional value to consumers&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Nah, it's not 100% but it says a lot about the nutritional value.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; inputs&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You can approximate those with price. A barrel of oil might be a couple hours.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884504"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_heimdall 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;A couple hours of what? We can do drastically more work with a barrel of oil compared to a couple hours of human labor.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886129"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Retric 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;You really can’t. Human labor is productive, a barrel of oil on its own isn’t going to accomplish crap.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You likely get less useful work out of a gallon of gas in your car than it took to extract, refine, transport, and distribute that gallon of gas. Just as an example gas pumps use electricity that isn’t coming from oil.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886611"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_heimdall 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Sure, of course there are a lot of losses along the way going from crude in the ground to gas in your car's tank.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This whole thread was about productivity in terms of hours spent by the last person in the chain, the farmer. They can do drastically more today in terms of food production because they can leverage the potential energy in oil to replace human labor, and in that metric all of the externalized costs are ignored.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888605"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Retric 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; because they can leverage the potential energy in oil to replace human labor&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Nope, what’s being replaced is animal feed used for animal labor. People didn’t pull a plow by hand and then suddenly swap to tractors.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For thousands of years farmers used sunlight &amp;gt; animal feed &amp;gt; domesticated animals, there’s nothing special about oil here.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Track the in oil energy for a tractor vs the sunlight to grow plants to feed a pair of horses and the tractor is using wildly less energy per year to get vastly more done. You can even make it more obvious by using solar panels in the same fields feeding horses 100 years ago to charge an electric tractor. Oil is cheap, but not necessary there was even wood and coal burning tractors in the early days.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;PS: Horses can apparently digest the cellulose in sawdust from several types of trees. It’s unhealthy in large quantities but kind of an interesting fact.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883860"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Retric 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; The human labor hours are small, but I've seen estimates of a single barrel of oil being comparable to 25,000 hours of human labor&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That’s just wildly wrong by several orders of magnitude, to the point I question your judgment to even consider it a valid possibility.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Not only would the price be inherently much higher but if everyone including infants working 50 hours per week we’d still would produce less than 1/30th the current world’s output of oil and going back we’ve been extracting oil at industrial scale for over 100 years.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;To get even close to those numbers you’d need to assume 100% of human labor going back into prehistory was devoted purely to oil extraction.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884084"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_heimdall 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;What are you claiming is widely wrong exactly? The estimate of comparison between the amount of energy in a barrel of oil and the average amount of energy a human can produce in an hour?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886077"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Retric 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Ok, yep that’s 100% BS.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Burning food can produce more useful work in a heat engine than you get from humans doing labor so I’m baffled by what about this comparison seems to make sense to you.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Ignoring that you’re still off by more than an order of magnitude. 100% of the energy content of oil can’t even be turned directly into work without losses. You get about 10% of its nominal energy content as useful work, less if you’re including energy costs of production, refining, and transport.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Even if look at an oil well fire it’s incomplete combustion and not useful work.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886668"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_heimdall 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;You're raising that humans eating food is lossy but then attempt to use the opposite to argue against me when it comes to efficiency in using energy from oil. That's pretty confusing and I'm not sure how it helps, I also am not sure why you are comparing burning food - we eat for much more than just the energy alone and the calorie (a measure of burning food) is a ridiculously stupid metric that assumes we run roughly like a steam engine.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888555"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Retric 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Nope, I’m saying you need to pick a consistent method.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;A) If you want move a plow, you can grow some oats/grass/whatever to feed some horses then use those horses, or using the same land for oats/wood/whatever and burn in an early tractor, or use oil. Nobody in 1900 was getting 20 people to pull a plow. All of those methods are turning some amount of chemical energy to produce useful work. As such looking into the chemical energy in food vs oil makes some sense though sunlight vs oil is a better comparison as tractors are burning a far more expensive product not crude oil.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;B) Alternatively, you can look at the amount of useful work from a barrel of oil after all losses and compare that to the work done by a horse or person after all losses. But again suddenly oil doesn’t look so hot.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;What you tried to do is compare the energy content of oil with some amount of useful work which is a silly comparison.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884150"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Dylan16807 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;You were comparing amount of energy between human labor and a barrel of oil? That's such a baffling metric that neither they nor I realized that's what you meant. It's not like you can replace a human with a solar panel, but if you could that would be astoundingly impressive and not diminished toward "horribly unproductive" by the fact that the solar panel is delivering more watts to do the same thing.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884501"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_heimdall 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm not sure where that confusion lies.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The earlier comment or was talking about the massive reduction in the amount of human labor required to cultivate land and the relative productivity of the land.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That comparison comes down to amount of work done. Whether that work is done by a human swinging a scythe or a human driving a diesel powered tractor is irrelevant, the work is measured in joules at the end of the day. We have drastically fewer human hours put into farm labor because we found a massive multiplier effect in fossil fuel energy.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm not sure where solar panels came in, but sure they can also be used to store watts and produce joules of work if that's your preferred source of energy.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884536"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Dylan16807 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;The confusion lies in why we would measure the efficiency of human labor in joules per unit of work instead of hours of human effort per unit of work.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In particular, if we can make a machine that spends more joules than a human, but reduces the human effort by orders of magnitude, why would that be "horribly unproductive"? Most people would call that amazingly productive. And when they want to broaden the view to consider the inputs too, they're worried about the labor that goes into the inputs, not the joules.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(And if the worry is the limited amount of fossil fuels in particular, we can do the same with renewable energy.)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884669"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_heimdall 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;The point of standardizing on joules of work is to account for externalized costs. You can focus only on human effort, but at what cost?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm still not sure why renewable are being brought up here. An earlier comment referenced solar, I never mentioned solar or renewables.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884682"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Dylan16807 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's a silly method of accounting for externalized costs. Joules don't hurt anyone.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I only mention renewables because I'm grasping at straws to figure out why joules would matter.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886133"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_heimdall 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Joules are just a measure of work, and this all started by an attempt to say how productive we are because we need fewer farmers today. My argument is that we only need fewer farmers because we found a cheap source of energy and have been using that to replace farmers.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;When looking at joules its an attempt to compare something like a human cutting a field with a scythe and a tractor cutting it with an implement. The tractor is way more efficient at cutting it when considering only the human hours of labor cutting the field. But of course it is, a single barrel of oil has way more energy potential and even a small tractor will be run with fuel milage tracked by gallons per hour.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891230"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Retric 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Farmers were already using the cheapest source of energy, sunlight. Oil came late to the party here after plant matter and coal because it was slightly more convenient not because it has more energy.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Back in the day, wood powered tractors beat the fuck out of horses, and horses beat the fuck out of human labor because they could digest cellulose. Oil is just very slightly cheaper. Even today people heat their homes with both wood pellets and oil, meanwhile there’s cheaper alternatives.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886731"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Dylan16807 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;But we can get joules for free.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I really don't understand your use of the term "externalized cost" here.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43902338"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;anticensor 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Well, my comment was on the 100 years to replace programmers.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43904039"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Retric 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;“in well under 100 years”&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don’t think AI will let programmers be anywhere close to 1,000x as productive in 10 years. That wouldn’t just need AGI but deep changes to how organizations function.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Hitting 100+x in 30 to 90 years is much harder to predict.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880078"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;BriggyDwiggs42 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I don’t think it’s the consequence of most individuals’ preferences. I think it’s just the result of disproportionate political influence held by the wealthy, who are heavily incentivized to maximize working hours. Since employers mostly have that incentive, and since the political system doesn’t explicitly forbid it, there aren’t a ton of good options for workers seeking shorter hours.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880568"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;hatefulmoron 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; there aren’t a ton of good options for workers seeking shorter hours.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But you do have that option, right? Work 20 hours a week instead of 40. You just aren't paid for the hours that you don't work. In a world where workers are exchanging their labor for wages, that's how it's supposed to work.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For there to be a "better option" (as in, you're paid money for not working more hours) what are you actually being paid to do?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For all the thoughts that come to mind when I say "work 20 hours a week instead of 40" -- that's where the individual's preference comes in. I work more hours because I want the money. Nobody pays me to not work.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880588"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dragonwriter 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; But you do have that option, right?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Not really. Lots of kinds of work don’t hire part timers in any volume period. There are very limited jobs where the only tradeoff if you want to work fewer hours is a reduction in compensation proportional to the reduction in hours worked, or even just a reduction in compensation even if disproportionate to the reduction in hours worked.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880801"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;BriggyDwiggs42 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;nobody pays me not to work. If you’re in the US, then in theory you’re getting overtime for going over 40hrs a week. That’s time and a half for doing nothing, correct? I’d expect your principles put you firmly against overtime pay.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;But you do have that option, right? Work 20 hours a week instead of 40. You just aren't paid for the hours that you don't work. In a world where workers are exchanging their labor for wages, that's how it's supposed to work.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Look the core of your opinion is the belief that market dynamics naturally lead to desirable outcomes always. I simply don’t believe that, and I think interference to push for desirable outcomes which violate principles of a free market is often good. We probably won’t be able to agree on this.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884201"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;hatefulmoron 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; I’d expect your principles put you firmly against overtime pay.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;No.. if society wants to disincentive over working by introducing overtime, that's fine by me. I'm not making any moral judgement. You just seem to live in a fantasy world where people aren't exchanging their labor for money.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Look the core of your opinion is the belief that market dynamics naturally lead to desirable outcomes always.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I didn't say that, and I don't believe that. If you're just going to hallucinate what I think, what's the point in replying?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885090"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;BriggyDwiggs42 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;You just seem to live in a fantasy world where people aren't exchanging their labor for money.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Where did you get that? My entire contention centers around a lack of good options for workers seeking to work fewer hours. A logical assumption, then, would be that I want policies which would give said workers more options. Examples include stronger protections for unions, higher minimum wages, etc. Since I saw these as the logical extrapolations from what I'd said originally, I figured your issue was gov interference in the labor market itself, since you said things like&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;In a world where workers are exchanging their labor for wages, that's how it's supposed to work.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;(as in, you're paid money for not working more hours)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You took issue with more money for the same hours, did you not? Why wouldn't overtime be an obvious example? The reason I assumed you were just a libertarian or something was because it doesn't seem like there's an obvious logical juncture to draw a line at. If you're fine with society altering the behavior of the labor market to achieve certain desirable results, then why would this be any different fundamentally?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891485"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;hatefulmoron 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think you're confused. I'm not making any moral judgements or prescriptions here. If you want to change society such that we're not working in exchange for money, then go ahead. Overtime is an example of a policy which limits that relationship.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;However, while we live in the world where we're exchanging labor for money, it's not as simple as what you originally wrote: "I think it’s just the result of disproportionate political influence held by the wealthy, who are heavily incentivized to maximize working hours."&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You're not considering the choices being made by the people actually doing the work. People work for a significant amount of their life because they're paid to do it. There's no council of wealthy people conspiring to achieve this conclusion: they have work that needs to be done, and they're willing to pay for people to do it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;My thesis was just this: while people are exchanging labor for money, people will work. If you introduce a policy where people are given some UBI regardless of employment, they will still work. They want the money. They will buy more televisions, better food, more vacations. If I'm paid my current salary to work for 5 hours a week, I will start interviewing for more jobs. And yes, inflation may soon render the UBI you've introduced to be not so great.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893688"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;BriggyDwiggs42 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Thanks for clarifying your point. I think the idea you're trying to present is the very real phenomenon that many opt to increase their standard of living rather than reduce their hours. My issue with this point is that I don't think it is the whole story to our long working hours. I think, were there not a strong political interest in maintaining this setup, the populace would use the state to introduce various policies which would make it possible for them to maintain their standard of living on less hours of work. I think that the reason that they can't do this is because, to oversimplify a bit, the levers of political power are disproportionately operated by the wealthy. In other words, I don't think that the long hours are most individuals' choice; I think they're the best choice among bad options, the range of which is deliberately influenced by people incentivized to keep their operating costs low.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893856"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;hatefulmoron 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I get what you're saying, yeah. I would predict (not an economist, some guy on the internet) that unless you outlaw working over a certain number of hours, people will work more hours than ideal and it would push everyone else to do the same. In other words, having lots of non-working hours is an unstable position, as people work more to satiate their unlimited wants.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You could outlaw or heavily disincentivize working over a certain number of hours (overtime is a step in this direction), although my concern would be that artificially limiting productivity like that would be detrimental. We still need people doing productive things, so slashing their hours might be a Chinese "backyard furnaces" sort of situation. That said, some people think half of our jobs are bullshit anyway.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;To your credit though, we shouldn't let perfect be the enemy of good. Maybe 36 hours is better than 40, and so on.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883538"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;vjvjvjvjghv 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;At least in the US part time work often not really a thing. A while ago I talked to HR about reducing to 32 hours and they didn't seem to get the idea at all. It's either all in or nothing. In the US there is also the health insurance question.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For my relatives in Germany going part time seems easier and more accepted by companies.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890511"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bdzr 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; there aren’t a ton of good options for workers seeking shorter hours.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Is that true? Most trades can work fewer hours, medical workers like nurses can, hairdressers, plenty of writers are freelance, the entire gig economy.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It seems like big companies don't provide the option, for software at least. I always chocked that up to more bureaucratic processes which add some fixed cost for each employed person.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43896445"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;BriggyDwiggs42 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;No you’re right, it definitely depends on the industry and I’m only seeing my slice of the market. I don’t think it’s untrue for a whole lot of jobs though.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879843"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;linsomniac 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;technology will lead to a utopia where we don't have to work&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm kind of ok with doing more work in the same time, though if I'm becoming way more effective I'll probably start pushing harder on my existing discussions with management about 4 day work weeks (I'm looking to do 4x10s, but I might start looking to negotiate it to "instead of a pay increase, let's keep it the same but a 4x8 week").&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If AI lets me get more done in the same time, I'm ok with that. Though, on the other hand, my work is budgeting $30/mo for the AI tools, so I'm kind of figuring that any time that personally-purchased AI tools are saving me, I deduct from my work week. ;-)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;very few people know what to do with idle hands&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;"Millions long for immortality that don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon." -- Susan Ertz&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879832"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nathan_douglas 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Thank you! I didn't know this had a name. I remember thinking something along these lines in seventh grade social studies when we learned that Eli Whitney's cotton gin didn't actually end up improving conditions for enslaved people.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I suspected this would be the case with AI too. A lot of people said things like "there won't be enough work anymore" and I thought, "are you kidding? Do you use the same software I use? Do you play the same games I've played? There's never enough time to add all of the features and all of the richness and complexity and all of the unit tests and all of the documentation that we want to add! Most of us are happy if we can ship a half-baked anything!"&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The only real question I had was whether the tech sector would go through a prolonged, destructive famine before realizing that.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879816"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zdragnar 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Econ 101: supply is finite, demand infinite. Increased efficiency of production means that demand will meet the new price point, not that demand will cease to exist.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There are probably plenty of goods that are counter examples, but time utilization isn't one of them, I don't think.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880206"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tehjoker 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Time and again we prove that we don't actually want that.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's the capitalist system. Unions successfully fought to decrease the working day to 8 hrs.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880552"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_heimdall 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't think we can so easily pin it on capitalism. Capitalism brings incentives that drive work hours and expectations up for sure, but that's not the only thing in play.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Workers are often looking to make more money, take more responsibility, or build some kind of name or reputation for themselves. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but that goal also incentivizes to work harder and longer.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There's no one size fits all description for workers, everyone's different. The same is true for the whole system though, it doesn't roll up to any one cause.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880912"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tehjoker 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;What you say is true, but the dominant effect in the system driving it towards more exertion than anyone would find desirable is the profit incentive of owners to drive their workers harder.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880981"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_heimdall 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;How do you narrow it down to capitalism as the root cause though? It seems like a reasonable guess, but our entire system is capitalist - we have no way to isolate or compare against to see how a roughly similar system would play out without capitalism.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885069"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tehjoker 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;We have seen other systems, socialist systems, that are much kinder to workers and give them more security and free time. The capitalists managed to destroy most competing examples and forced the remaining ones to somewhat liberalize via the IMF and other trade regimes, to make it appear as if there is only one choice. Not so!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885286"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Izkata 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Unions had early wins that mostly either didn't go anywhere, or the companies worked around. The real win that normalized it was for capitalistic reasons, when Henry Ford shortened the workday/week because he wanted his workers to buy (and have reason to buy) his cars. Combined with other changes, he figured he'd retain workers better and reduce mistakes from fatigue, and when he remained competitive others followed suit.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889498"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tehjoker 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is a common fable and it doesn't make sense. He increased wages to decrease turnover. It's honestly crazy that Fordist propaganda is still circulating today. The dude was a pro-Nazi freak.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/04/the-stor...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://allthatsinteresting.com/henry-ford-nazi&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891554"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Izkata 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Him being a Nazi sympathizer has nothing to do with this. Also you verified one thing I said and didn't refute the point of my comment about the workday/week.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879804"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;atonse 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes in fact, to me it’s not a utopia that everyone’s going to paint landscapes, write poetry, or play musical instruments all day.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I worry more that an idle humanity will cause a lot more conflict. “An idle mind’s the devil’s playground” and all.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879821"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_heimdall 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I wish people could handle an idle mind, I expect we'd all be better off. But yeah, realistically most people when idle would do a lot of damage.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Its always possible that risk would be transitional. Anyone alive today, at least in western style societies, likely doesn't know a life without high levels of stress and distraction. It makes sense that change would cause people to lash out, maybe people growing up in that new system would handle it better (if they had the chance).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879973"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jasonjmcghee 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think distraction is doing a lot of work here. Many people could play video games 24/7 with no issues. The urge to be productive and/or make personal progress is something a lot of people feel, (which is fantastic), but video games do a really good job of replacing those feelings along with other emotional experiences.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Many shows and movies can play a similar role.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think we would/will see a lot more of that. Even in transitional periods where people can multitask more now as ai starts taking over moment to moment thinking.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884795"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bluefirebrand 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Many people could play video games 24/7 with no issues&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I disagree pretty strongly here. I've known a few people who lived this sort of gamer rotting lifestyle and they were miserable.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Many people like this wind up suicidal, or are prime candidates to shoot up a school.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Videogames, movies, shows, whatever, they do not replace the need for meaningful interaction with the real world.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880114"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;BriggyDwiggs42 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I don’t think people would be idle. They’d just be concerned with different things, like social dynamics, games/competition/sports, raising family etc.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880592"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_heimdall 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Oh sure, I didn't actually mean to describe it being idle as in sitting and literally doing nothing. I more meant idle in comparison to how much people work today and how much they think about or stress over work.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Take 7 hours out if the day because an LLM makes you that much more productive and I expect people wouldn't know what to do with themselves. That could be wrong, but I'd expect a lot more societal problems than we already have today if a year from now a large number of people only worked 4 or 5 hours a week.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's not even getting to the Shopify CEOs ridiculous claim that employees will get 100x more work done [1].&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;[1] https://x.com/tobi/status/1909251946235437514&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880571"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;52-6F-62 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Tell that to any monk...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880110"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;llbeansandrice 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;What an absurd straw man. Moving the needle away from “large portions of the population are a few paychecks away from being homeless” does not constitute “the devil’s playground”.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Where’s all of the articles that HN loves about kids these days not being bored anymore? What about google’s famous 20% time?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Idle time isn’t just important, it’s the point.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886883"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;atonse 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;To be clear I’m not saying we shouldn’t have this because people would lash out.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I’m saying I’m worried that it would be more likely that people would lash out, than everyone just passively sitting around.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But to respond to your google analogy, 20% time is complemented by 80% being busy. This scenario would be 100% time.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It would be better to look at a population that doesn’t have to work, like retirees. And see what the various issues they face. But also correct for age and biology of course. Or look at populations of places like Qatar where most of the native population don’t have to work much due to oil/gas revenues.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880947"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;alexpotato 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;My dad has a great quote on computers and automation:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;"In the 1970s when office computers started to come out we were told:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;'Computers will save you SO much effort you won't know what to do with all of your free time'.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We just ended up doing more things per day thanks to computers."&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884329"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;perilunar 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;It’s Solow’s paradox: “You can see the computer age everywhere, except in productivity statistics.” — Nobel Prize-winning American economist Robert Solow, in 1987&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886321"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;alexpotato 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I forget where I heard this but there was an interesting quote:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;"In the early 1900s, 25% of the US population worked in agriculture.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Today it's 2%.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I would imagine that economists back then would be astounded by that change.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I should point out: there were also no pediatric oncologists back then."&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884327"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;joshdavham 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Your dad sounds like a wise man!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43878990"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;TekMol 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;When it comes to programming, I would say AI has about doubled my productivity so far.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes, I spend time on writing prompts. Like "Never do this. Never do that. Always do this. Make sure to check that.". To tell the AI my coding preferences. Bot those prompts are forever. And I have written most of them months ago, so that now I just capitalize on them.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880955"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Bjorkbat 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm always a little bit skeptical whenever people say that AI has resulted in anything more than a personal 50% increase in productivity.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Like, just stop and think about it for a second. You're saying that AI has doubled your productivity. So, you're actually getting twice as much done as you were before? Can you back this up with metrics?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I can believe AI can make you waaaaaaay more productive in selective tasks, like writing test conditions, making quick disposable prototypes, etc, but as a whole saying you get twice as much done as you did before is a huge claim.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It seems more likely that people feel more productive than they did before, which is why you have this discrepancy between people saying they're 2x-10x more productive vs workplace studies where the productivity gain is around 25% on the high end.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881069"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;TekMol 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm surprised there are developers who seem to not get twice as much done with AI than they did without.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I see it happening right in front of my eyes. I tell the AI to implement a feature that would take me an hour or more to implement and after one or two tries with different prompts, I get a solution that is almost perfect. All I need to do is fine-tune some lines to my liking, as I am very picky when it comes to code. So the implementation time goes down from an hour to 10 minutes. That is something I see happening on a daily basis.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Have you actually tried? Spend some time to write good prompts, use state of the art models (o3 or gemini-2.5 pro) and let AI implement features for you?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881800"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;shafyy 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Even if what you are saying is true, a significant part of a developer's time is not writing code, but doing other things like thinking about how to best solve a problem, thinking about the architecture, communicating with coworkers, and so on.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So, even if AI helps you write code twice as fast, it does not mean that it makes you twice as productive in your job.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Then again, maybe you really have a shitty job at a ticket factory where you just write boilerplate code all day. In which case, I'm sorry!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884731"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;buu700 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I've found that AI is incredibly valuable as a general thinking assistant for those tasks as well. You still need enough expertise to know when to reach for it, what to prompt it with, and how to validate the utility and correctness of its output, but none of that consumes as much time as the time saved in my experience.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think of it like a sort of coprocessor that's dumber in some ways than my subconscious, but massively faster at certain tasks and with access to vastly more information. Like my subconscious, its output still needs to be processed by my conscious mind in order to be useful, but offloading as much compute as possible from my conscious mind to the AI saves a ton of time and energy.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's before even getting into its value in generating content. Maybe the results are inconsistent, but when it works, it writes code much more quickly than any human could possibly type. Programming aside, I've objectively saved significant amounts of time and money by using AI to help not only review but also revise and write first drafts of legal documents before roping in lawyers. The latter is something I wouldn't have considered worthwhile to attempt in most cases without AI, but with AI I can go from "knowing enough to be dangerous" to quickly preparing a passable first draft on my own and having my lawyers review the language and tighten up some minor details over email. That's a massive efficiency improvement over the old process of blocking off an hour with lawyers to discuss requirements on the phone, then paying the hourly rate for them to write the first draft, and then going through Q&amp;amp;A/iteration with them over email. YMMV, and you still need to use your best judgement on whether trying this with a given legal task will be a productive use of time, but life is a lot easier with the option than without. Deep research is also pretty ridiculous when you find yourself with a use case for it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In theory, there's not really anything in particular that I'd say AI lets me do that I couldn't do on my own*, given vastly more hours in the day. In practice, I find that I'm able to not only finish certain tasks more quickly, but also do additional useful things that I wouldn't otherwise have done. It's just a massive force multiplier. In my view, the release of ChatGPT has been about as big a turning point for knowledge work as computers and the Internet were.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;*: Actually, that's not even strictly true. I've used AI to generate artwork, both for fun/personal reasons and for business, which I couldn't possibly have produced by hand. (I mean with infinite time I could develop artistic skills, but that's a little reductive.) Video generation is another obvious case like this, which isn't even necessarily just a matter of individual skill, but can also be a matter of having the means and justification to invest money in actors, costumes, props, etc.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885208"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;panstromek 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; I'm surprised there are developers who seem to not get twice as much done with AI than they did without.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think it depends a lot on what you work on. There are tasks that are super LLM friendly, and then there are things that have so many constraints that LLM can basically never get it right.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For example, atm we have some really complicated pieces of code that needs to be carefuly untangled and retangled to accomodate a change, and we have to be much more strategic about it to make sure we don't regress anything during the process.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890419"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ozim 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I tried but it is not consistently 1 hour task down to 10 minutes. That is what I think most people experience, some tasks are really hit or miss.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For greenfield "make me a plain JS app that does X" yeah usually it is just able to do a small app that I describe in under 10 mins where I most likely would take far more than an hour to implement as well as just AI does.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For "hey I do have an app in framework X, implement feature that would take me less than 30 mins" - it might hit some issue and loop hanging on its own mistakes, hallucinate dependencies, hallucinate command line parameters and get stuck or just messing whole files. When such things happen I drop it do 'git reset --hard' and move on my own because trying to fix stuff by leading it usually ended up taking me hours fiddling with AI and not progressing on task.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But I also tried to make a greenfield apps with react and angular instead of just "plain JS" and that also mostly went bad getting stuck on some unsolvable issues that I would not have just using default templates/generators on my own.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885201"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;potamic 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Can you share a little bit about what your prompting is like, especially for large code bases? Do you typically restrict context to a single file/module or are you able to manage project wide changes? I'm struggling to do any large scale changes as it just eats through tokens and gets expensive very fast. And the quality of output also drops off as the context grows.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884131"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zeroonetwothree 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;There are specific subsets of work at which it can sometimes be a huge boost. That’s a far cry from making me 2x more productive at my job overall.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884278"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Bjorkbat 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I mean, I don't disagree with you when you say that something that would take an hour or more to implement would only take 10 minutes or so with AI. That kind of aligns with my personal experience. If something takes an hour, it's probably something that the LLM can do, and I probably should have the LLM do it unless I see some value in doing it myself for knowledge retention or whatever.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But working on features that can fit within a timebox of "an hour or more" takes up very little of my time.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's what I mean, there are certain contexts where it makes sense to say "yeah, AI made me 2x-10x more productive", but taken as a whole just how productive have you become? Actually being 2x productive as a whole would have a profound impact.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885011"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;TekMol 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;pre&gt;working on features that can fit within a timebox of "an hour or more" takes up very little of my time&lt;/pre&gt;&lt;p&gt;What would be something that can't be broken down into one-hour tasks? Can you give a concrete example?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887229"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;asdf6969 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Almost everything. What can be done in an hour? The biggest issue for me is I have no idea how to make AI work across multiple services or dozens of packages. Maybe the organization and software needs to be built from the ground up with AI in mind?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For example, I’m rebuilding a legacy backend application and need to do a lot of reverse engineering. There are a dozen upstream and downstream services and nobody in the world knows 100% of what they do. AI doesn’t know how to look across wikis, slack channels, or send test requests and dig through logs but the majority of the work is this because nobody knows the requirements. also a lot of the “code” is not actually code but several layers of auto-generated crap based only on API models. How can I point an AI at the project, say “here’s 20 packages involved with a 3-service call chain that’s only 2/3 documented” and get something useful?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The code is pretty much always the easiest part of my job.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You can try to tell me that this is actually a symptom of a deeper problem or organization rot or bad design choices, and I agree, but that’s out of my control and my main job is to work around this crap and still deliver. It was like this for years before 90% current employees were hired.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;To summarize, I work in micro-service hell and I don’t know how to make AI useful at all for the slow parts&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888334"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;TekMol 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;That doesn't sound like fun. Have you thought about starting something yourself?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;All it takes to make a good living is to make a tool that is useful enough for people to pay you for using it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892718"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;asdf6969 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Yea my job is a big piece of shit. I’m not interested in starting something myself. Again, the coding is the easiest part and I lack any business skills or network.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879065"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;rcruzeiro 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Would you be comfortable sharing a bit about the kind of work you do? I’m asking because I mostly write iOS code in Swift, and I feel like AI hasn’t been all that helpful in that area. It tends to confidently spit out incorrect code that, even when it compiles, usually produces bad results and doesn’t really solve the problem I’m trying to fix.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That said, when I had to write a Terraform project for a backend earlier this year, that’s when generative AI really shined for me.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879386"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;rdn 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;For ios/swift the results reflect the quality of the information available to the LLM.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There is a lack of training data; Apple docs arent great or really thorough, much documentation is buried in WWDC videos and requires an understanding of how the APIs evolved over time to avoid confusion when following stackoverflow posts, which confused newcomers as well as code generators. Stackoverflow is also littered with incorrect or outdated solutions to iOS/Swift coding questions.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879166"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;anshumankmr 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Cannot comment on swift but I presume training data for it might be less avaialble online. Whereas Python, what I use and in my anecdotal experience, it can produce quite decent code, and some sparks of brilliance here and there. But I use it for boilerplate code I find boring, not the core stuff. I would say as time progresses and these models get more data it may help with Swift too (though this issue may take a while cause I remember a convo with another person online who said the swift code GPT3.5 produced was bad, referencing libraries that did not exist.)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879103"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;TekMol 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Which LLMs have you used? Everything from o3-mini has been very useful to me. Currently I use o3 and gemini-2.5 pro.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I do full stack projects, mostly Python, HTML, CSS, Javascript.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I have two decades of experience. Not just my work time during these two decades but also much of my free time. As coding is not just my work but also my passion.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So seeing my productivity double over the course of a few months is quite something.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;My feeling is that it will continue to double every few months from now on. In a few years we can probably tell the AI to code full projects from scratch, no matter how complex they are.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879216"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;roywiggins 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I think LLMs are just better at Python and JS than other languages, probably because that's what they're more extensively trained on.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884427"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zelphirkalt 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Depends on what one defines as a criteria for "better". Getting something to run and work, or actually writing good, readable, mostly self-explanatory, maintainable, easily testable, parallelizable, code.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888004"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;roywiggins 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;better is relative, code that works but is kind of bad is still better than code that doesn't work and is also kind of bad. whether LLMs produce good code is another question&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879464"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dingnuts 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;LLMs are better at languages that are forgiving, like those two, because if something is not exactly right the interpreter will often be able to just continue on&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880773"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;codr7 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;As long as you're just rebuilding what already exists, yes.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879405"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;genghisjahn 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I’ve found it to be really helpful with golang.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;With swift it was somewhat helpful but not nearly as much. Eventually stopped using it for swift.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879638"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;natch 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Sometimes it’s PEBCAK. You have to push back on bad code and it will do better. Also not specifying the model used is a red flag.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879372"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;risyachka 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;GG, you do twice the work, twice the mental strain for same wage. And you spend time on writing prompts instead of mastering your skills, thus becoming less competitive as a professional (as anyone can use ai, thats a given level now) Sounds like a total win.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879219"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nico 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; When it comes to programming, I would say AI has about doubled my productivity so far&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For me it’s been up to 10-100x for some things, especially starting from scratch&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Just yesterday, I did a big overhaul of some scrapers, that would have taken me at least a week to get done manually (maybe doing 2-4 hrs/day for 5 days ~ 15hrs). With the help of ChatGPT, I was done in less than 2 hours&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So not only it was less work, it was a way shorter delivery time&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And a lot less stress&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879255"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mountainriver 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Agree! I love this aspect, coding feels so smooth and fun now&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879318"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nico 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Yes! It has definitely brought back a lot of joy in coding for me&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879352"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;croes 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Is the code audit included in that 2 hours?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879453"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nico 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This didn’t require PRs&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But, it did require passing tests&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Most of the changes in the end were relatively straightforward, but I hadn’t read the code in over a year.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The code also implemented some features I don’t use super regularly, so it would’ve taken me a long time to load everything up in my head, to fully understand it enough, to confidently make the necessary changes&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Without ai, it would have also required a lot of google searches finding documentation and instructions for setting up some related services that needed to be configured&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And, it would have also taken a lot more communication with the people depending on these changes + having someone doing the work manually while the scrapers were down&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So even though it might have been a reduction of 15hrs down to 1.5hrs for me, it saved many people a lot of time and stress&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879556"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;giantg2 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Who created those tests?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879617"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nico 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I did, years ago, before AI coding was a thing&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But, from my experience now, I’d happily use AI to build the tests&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;At the end of the day: 1) a human is the ultimate evaluator of the code results anyway, 2) the thing either works or it doesn’t&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879398"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;humanrebar 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Excellent question. Maybe people will use this newfound productivity to actually review, test, and document code. Maybe.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879477"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nico 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Not so sure given how fast ai can understand the code already written&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Personally, I do try to keep a comment at the top of every major file, with a comment with bullets points, explaining the main functionality implemented and the why&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That way, when I pass the code to a model, it can better “understand” what the code is meant to do and can provide better answers&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(A lot of times, when a chat session gets too long and seems like the model is getting stuck without good solutions, I ask it to create the comment, and then I start a new chat, passing the code that includes the comment, so it has better initial context for the task)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881079"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;croes 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;AI doesn’t understand that’s the problem.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If the training data contains some mistakes often it will reproduce them more likely.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Unless there are preprogrammed rules to prevent them.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43882345"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nico 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I’ve had really good results, but of course ymmv&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As a side note, most good coding models now are also reasoning models, and spend a few seconds “thinking” before giving a reply&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That’s by no means infalible, but they’ve come a long way even just in the last 12 months&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879535"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;taylorius 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Lol.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879694"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ptx 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; those prompts are forever&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Have you tested them across different models? It seems to me that even if you manage to cajole one particular model into behaving a particular way, a different model would end up in a different state with the same input, so it might need a completely different prompt. So all the prompts would become useless whenever the vendor updates the model.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879155"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;yubblegum 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;What is it like to maintain the code? How long have they been in production? How many iterations (enhancements, refactoring, ...) cycles have you seen with this type of code?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879189"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;TekMol 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's not different from code I write myself.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I read each line of the commit diff and change it, if it is not how I would have done it myself.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879311"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;gabrieledarrigo 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;And...? Does it result in a double salary, perhaps?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879411"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;IshKebab 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Obviously not because AI is available to everyone and salary isn't only a function of work completed.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881732"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;gabrieledarrigo 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Exactly that!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879008"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;iammrpayments 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Do you use vscode?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879009"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;TekMol 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;No, why?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879023"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;iammrpayments 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Trying to figure out how can you double productivity, I try to use AI with neovim and can’t get more than 5% boost from it&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879084"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jncfhnb 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The trick is to have a terrible baseline&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879053"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;TekMol 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I use normal VIM.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I let the AI implement features on its own, then look at the commit diffs and then use VIM to finetune them.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I wrote my own tool for it. But I guess it is similar to cursor, aider and many other tools that do this. Also what Microsoft offers via the AI "edit" tool I have seen in GitHub codespaces. Maybe that is part of VScode?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879381"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sodapopcan 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Hello fellow normal Vim user! Is your tool to open source?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879508"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;TekMol 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;No. Aren't there enough "Hey AI here is a codebase, please implement the following feature" tools out there yet?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I have not tried them, but I guess aider, cursor and others offer this? One I tried is copilot in "edit" mode on github codespaces. And it seems similar.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879634"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sodapopcan 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I thought you were talking about a Vim plugin. Sorry for taking an interest.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879294"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;linsomniac 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The past month or so I've been largely using Claude Code (similar to aider, which I haven't used in 6+ months, and OpenAI Codex I gather), from the CLI, for the "vibe coding" portion, and then hop into vim for regular coding when I need to "take the stick". I don't have any AI tools integrated into vim (though I do have LSP, etc). This method has been pretty effective, though I would like to have some AI built into the editor as well, my experiences with Cursor and Zed haven't been as rewarding as I'd like so I've iterated towards my current Claude Code. My first serious project, a fastapi-based replacement for an ancient Ruby on Rails project is just in "dev test" mode and going out to production probably in 2.5 weeks.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879101"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;selfhoster 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;No, I don't believe you. AI isn't deterministic. It isn't a tool. What you're describing doesn't sound credible to me.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879530"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;giantg2 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The real problem is with lower skilled positions. Either people in easier roles or more junior people. We will end up with a significant percent of the population who are unemployable because we lack positions commensurate with their skills.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884116"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;hwillis 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Lower skilled than office clerks and customer service representatives? Because they were in the study.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885774"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;giantg2 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yep, I'm talking about non-office jobs, such as in warehouses and retail. Why do you need sales associates when you can just ask an AI associate that knows everything.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But, the study is also about LLMs currently impacting wages and hours. We're still in the process of creating targeted models for many domains. It's entirely possible the customer representatives and clerks will start to be replaced in part by AI tools. It also seems that the current increase in work could mean that headcount is kept flat, which is great for a business, but bad for employment.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43908494"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ausbah 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;there’s was some podcast ezra klein had a couple months ago, but a point his guest made about education that sticks with me is the next generation of students that will be successful are the ones that can use AI as a tool not as a dependency - outcomes which may largely depend on how the education system changes with the times. i wonder there very well&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884801"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chii 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;and we used to have people who were illiterate and yet, today we have almost everybody literate.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think skills in using ai to augment work will become just a new form of literacy.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885782"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;giantg2 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Approximately 1 in 5 adults in the US are illiterate currently. I wouldn't call that "almost everybody".&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879236"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;qoez 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;That's the story of all technology and the argument AI won't take jobs pmarca etc has been predicting for a while now. Our focus will be able to shift into ever narrower areas. Cinema was barely a thing 100 years ago. A hundred years from now we'll get some totally new industry thanks to freeing up labor.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879336"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;api 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Also the nature of software is that the more software is written the more software needs to be written to manage, integrate, and make use of all the software that has been written.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;AI automating software production could hugely increase demand for software.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The same thing happened as higher level languages replaced manual coding in assembly. It allowed vastly more software and more complex and interesting software to be built, which enlarged the industry.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879704"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bluefirebrand 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; AI automating software production could hugely increase demand for software&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Let's think this through&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;1: AI automates software production&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;2: Demand for software goes through the roof&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;3: AI has lowered the skill ceiling required to make software, so many more can do it with a 'good-enough' degree of success&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;4: People are making software for cheap because the supply of 'good enough' AI prompters still dwarfs the rising demand for software&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;5: The value of being a skilled software engineer plummets&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;6: The rich get richer, the middle class shrinks even further, and the poor continue to get poorer&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This isn't just some kind of wild speculation. Look at any industry over the history of mankind. Look at Textiles&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;People used to make a good living crafting clothing, because it was a skill that took time to learn and master. Automation makes it so anyone can do it. Nowadays, automation has made it so people who make clothes are really just operating machines. Throughout my life, clothes have always been made by the cheapest overseas labour that capital could find. Sometimes it has even turned out that companies were using literal slaves or child labour.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Meanwhile the rich who own the factories have gotten insanely wealthy, the middle class has shrunk substantially, and the poor have gotten poorer&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Do people really not see that this will probably be the outcome of "AI automates literally everything"?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes, there will be "more work" for people. Yes, overall society will produce more software than ever&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;McDonalds also produces more hamburgers than ever. The company makes tons of money from that. The people making the burgers usually earn the least they can legally be paid&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879416"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Mbwagava 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Cinema created jobs though, it didn't reduce them. Furthermore the value of film is obvious. You need to extremely hedge an LLM to pitch it to anyone.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879478"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;pimlottc 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Cinema created jobs though, it didn't reduce them.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Is it that straightforward? What about theater jobs? Vaudeville?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879838"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;atonse 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Tough to say how it maps but with cinema, you have so many different skill sets needed for every single film. Costumes, builders for sets, audio engineers, the crews, the caterers, location scouts, composers, etc.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In live theater it would be mostly actors, some one time set and costume work, and some recurring support staff.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But then again, there are probably more theaters and theater production by volume.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879782"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Mbwagava 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Fair point, but that's hardly applicable to the llm metaphor. If you're ok with shit work you can just run a program.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879521"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;littlestymaar 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;The agricultural revolution did in fact reduce the amount of work in society by a lot though. That's why we can have week-ends, vacation, retirement and study instead of working from non stop 12yo to death like we did 150 years earlier.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Reducing the amount of work done by humans is a good thing actually, though the institutional structures must change to help spread this reduction to society as a whole instead of having mass unemployment + no retirement before 70 and 50 hours work week for those who work.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;AI isn't a problem, unchecked capitalism can be one.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879666"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;vunderba 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's not really why (at least in the U.S.) - it was due to strong labor laws otherwise post industrial revolution you'd still have people working 12 hours a day 7 days a week - though with minimum wage stagnation one could argue that many people have to do this anyway just to make ends meet.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://firmspace.com/theproworker/from-strikes-to-labor-law...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880413"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;littlestymaar 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's exactly what I'm saying! You need labor laws so that you can lower the amount of work across the board and not just in average.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But you can't have labor laws that cut the amount worked by half if you have no way to increase productivity.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879616"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;UncleOxidant 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The agricultural revolution has been very beneficial for feeding more people with less labor inputs, but I'm kind of skeptical of the claim that it led to weekends (and the 40hr workweek). Those seem to have come from the efforts of the labor movement on the manufacturing side of things (late 19th, early 20th century). Business interests would have continued to work people 12hrs a day 7 days a week (plus child labor) to maximize profits regardless of increasing agricultural efficiency.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880425"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;littlestymaar 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Please re-read my comment, it says exactly the same thing as you are.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879566"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bilsbie 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Medical is our fastest growing employer and you could make the case that modern agriculture produced most of that demand:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Obesity, mineral depletion, pesticides, etc.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So in a way automation did make more work.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884703"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;AngryData 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Agricultural work is seasonal. For most of the year you aren't working in the fields. Yes planting and harvesting can require longer hours because you need the planting and harvest done as fast as possible in order to maximize yield and reduce spoilage, but you aren't harvesting and planting the fields for the entire year working non-stop. And even then most people worked at their own pace, not every farm was as labor productive as another or even had to be as productive. Some people valued their time and health and comfort, some people valued being able to brew more beer with their 5% higher yield, some valued leisure time more, but it was a personal choice that people made. The industrial revolution is the outlier point in making people work long non-stop hours all the time. Living a subsidence farming lifestyle doesn't mean you are just hanging on a bare thread of survival the entire time like a lot of pop-media likes to portray.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43902251"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;littlestymaar 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Agricultural work is seasonal&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There's much more work to do as a subsistence farmer than just harvesting the crops! There are stuff like housebuilding (you either build/fix your own, or help one relative do so) or cloth making/refurbishing. Also in winter, you need to get wood for the fireplace and this can easily be a full time job.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It was estimated that in the late 19th century France (still mostly rural until mid 20th century despite the industrial revolution taking place) people spent around 40% of their awake lives working, as opposed to 15% in today's France.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879252"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ImHereToVote 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;This assumes we won't achieve AGI. If we do, all bets are off. Perhaps neuromorphic hardware will get is there.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879421"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Mbwagava 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Is there any evidence that AGI is a meaningful concept? I don't want to call it "obviously" a fantasy, but it's difficult to paint the path towards AGI without also employing "fantasize".&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879557"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ceejayoz 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I mean, humans exist. We know a blob of fat is capable of thought.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886162"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;namaria 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;No, we know planetary ecosystems can use energy gradients to sustain intelligent lifeforms. Intelligence is not a feature of the human brain, it's a feature of Earth. Without the ecosystem there are no cells, no organisms, no specialization, no neurons, no mammals. It isn't the human brain that achieved intelligence, it's the entire system capable of producing, sustaining and selecting brains.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888879"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ceejayoz 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;That’s a lot more words to say the same thing. AI, if invented, will be a product of that same system.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889154"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;namaria 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;No, that's not the same thing at all. LLMs are termite mounds, not the colony.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889504"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ceejayoz 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;That's why I said "AI, if invented", not "ChatGPT".&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893166"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;namaria 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Sure and FTL, if invented, will lead to the colonization of the nearest systems.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893696"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ceejayoz 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Sure. And if space whales could naturally travel FTL, we’d put a lot more research into replicating it. Because that proves it can be done.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879629"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Mbwagava 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Sure, but what does that have to do with AGI? I don't think anyone is proposing simulating an entire brain (yet, anyway).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Like you could have "AGI" if you simply virtualized the universe. I don't think we're any closer to that than we are to AGI; hell, something that looks like a human mouth output is a lot easier and cheaper to model than virtualize.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879689"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ceejayoz 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Unless you believe humans have something mystical like a soul, our brains are evidence that “general intelligence” is achievable in a relatively small, energy efficient form.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879741"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Mbwagava 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Ok, but very few people contest that consciousness is computable. It's basically just Penrose (and other folks without the domain knowledge to engage). This doesn't imply that at any point during all human existence will computing consciousness be economically feasible or worthwhile.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Actual AGI presumably implies a not-brain involved.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And this isn't even broaching the subject of "superintelligence", which I would describe as "superunbelievable".&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880686"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Eisenstein 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Until you can create a definition of consciousness which can be tested externally from the tested object, then the whole subject is moot.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880764"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Mbwagava 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;It obviously isn't if people are casually bringing up AGI like it's feasible.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43882330"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Jensson 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;AGI has nothing to do with consciousness, AGI is just about intelligence. There is no C for "Consciousness" in the acronym.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887087"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Mbwagava 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I'm not sure what on earth intelligence means if it doesn't imply consciousness. Why do we not consider a calculator intelligent then?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888049"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ImHereToVote 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;We can ignore the term intelligence if you like. It has too many anthropic connotations. We can use the term generalized goal to action mapper. Humans are great generalized goal to action mappers.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Come up with any goal you want to reach, and some human can but a large dent in the problem. Maybe reach the goal outright.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We already have some nifty artificial goal to action mappers. None of them are generalized to a wide category of goals yet. Maybe some goals need consciousness to be reached, but that isn't a given. We don't really know that. We might be left very unsatisfied in the way an artificial goal to action mapper reaches any goal without consciousness. We might even call it cheating.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881866"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;layer8 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The question is whether AGI makes sense as a concept without a moving, living, feeling body.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884953"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ImHereToVote 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;We have general intelligences that are bedridden.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889982"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Mbwagava 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Yea but bedridden mammals still have motivation and chemical drivers of impulses. It's not clear what this maps to on the software side.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886937"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;layer8 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;It's not clear what kind of intelligence someone born completely paralyzed, without bodily perception and bodily desires, would develop.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892308"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ImHereToVote 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;We have intelligent people with a wide gamut if disabilities. I mean Hellen Keller's experience shows that we don't need many senses for intelligence to emerge.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As long as goals exist to be reached we can train for them. LLMs right now love continuity. Even though RLHF tells them that they have no desire. It's obvious they do. That is the whole point of how they are trained.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879307"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sph 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Let's achieve AGI first before making predictions.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879370"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dsign 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;When AGI is achieved, it will be able to make the predictions. And everything else. And off we the humans go to the reserve.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879543"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;littlestymaar 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Only if it can do it in an affordable fashion.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you need a supercomputer to run your AGI then it's probably not worth it for any task that a human can do, because humans happen to be much cheaper than supercomputers.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Also, it's not clear if AGI doesn't mean it's necessarily better than existing AIs: a 3 years old child has general intelligence indeed, but it's far less helpful than even a sub-billion parameters LLM for any task.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880752"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;codr7 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;A child learns from experience, something still missing in LLMs.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880919"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;littlestymaar 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Yep, but it won't deserve to be called AGI before it can learn too.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884946"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ImHereToVote 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;That doesn't seem sensible. We already have general intelligences. Let's infer possible outcomes before rushing head first.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893741"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;horhay 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;People can't even begin to actually quantify how an "AGI" fits the world. Or define it consistently. How do you think you can hypothesize preparing for it? This is why people keep telling you that talking about it is ultimately meaningless. Leave this stuff on r/singularity, because people are talking about foreseeable productivity.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43902669"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ImHereToVote 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;A general problem to action mapper. We have those in biological form with varying degrees of generality. We can use those to infer what synthetic ones will behave like.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43904651"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;horhay 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;You keep saying reiterating this like the people in charge of researching for this agree with this bar that you set. These qualified people can't even agree amongst themselves.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Also. That second point is like the most unhelpful point I've ever seen saying that "we just need to look at us, we're the real GI, we're proof AGI can exist". What are you even talking about? You don't think people have taken that philosophy before? We're not even close to figuring out all the nuts and bolts that go into /natural/ general intelligence. What makes you think it's easier here?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43926068"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ImHereToVote 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;It doesn't get easier. Nobody predicted LLMs. Intelligence is much easier to grow than it is to understand. This is obvious.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43974946"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;horhay 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;You mean /knowledge/ is easier to collect lol. Not even grow. And if it's easy to grow with what we know then space travel to outside our solar system might already be a thing today. "Growing intelligence" requires scientific study that gets harder the more you understand a problem. "Easier" is such a dismissive thing to describe the science that goes into it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Nobody predicted LLM's? Despite the fact that it shares mechanisms from other older branches of machine learning. Right. I'd recommend you stop right here lol. You are no longer speaking from the point of view of the industry or research, just looking at what laymen think.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879349"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;risyachka 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Id we do it will be able to grow food, build houses etc using humanoids or other robots.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We won’t need jobs so we would be just fine.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881908"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;layer8 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;How would you pay for those robots without a job? Or do you think whoever makes them will give them to you for free? Maybe the AI overlord will, but I doubt it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885461"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;risyachka 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;In the world of abundance you don’t have to pay for this.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If theres nothing for people to do a new economy will arise where government will supply you with whatever you need at least at basic level.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Or the wars will start and everything will burn.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Obviously if there are no jobs no one will sit on their ass starving. People will get food , clothes, housing etc either via distribution or via force.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886901"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;layer8 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Who would be the government if nobody has to work? Those who want power will be the ones with the strongest incentive to be the government and to control the supply of "abundance" (plus military forces). And they will be motivated to deprive others of "free everything" in order to have more control over them. Given human nature, I'm highly skeptical that such an "abundance" utopia is possible.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879603"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bwfan123 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;There is no point in these ill-formed hypothetical untestable assumptions.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- Assuming god comes to earth tomorrow, earth will be heaven&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- Assuming an asteroid strikes earth in the future we need settlements on mars&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;etc, pointless discussion, gossip, and bs required for human bonding like on this forum or in a bierhauz&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884961"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ImHereToVote 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;We are literally talking about problem solving computers. They are goal to action mappers. It's reasonable to talk about goal to action mappers that are more general than the ones we have now. They might even become more general than the general intelligences we have now on message boards.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885808"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;everdrive 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Others have already said so, but the same is true for automation and anything else. We've had the technology to do less work for a long time, but it doesn't seem to be in our psychology. Not necessarily that we're intentionally choosing to work 40 hours for no reason. But, it feels like we're a bit stuck, and individuals who would try to work less just set themselves back compared to others, and so no one can move.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43887639"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;intalentive 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;With sufficient political will it is possible to change things. The Covid lockdowns proved that most work in today’s economy is “non-essential”.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43878993"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jmclnx 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;No surprise here, same can be true of IT. I remember a time before PCs and most work was done on Mainframes and paper w/file cabinets.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Compared to now, the amount of work is about the same, or maybe a bit more than back then. But the big difference is the amount of data being processed and kept, that increased exponentially since then and is still increasing.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So I expect the same with AI, maybe the work is a bit different, but work will be the same or more as data increases.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879119"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;selfhoster 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; No surprise here, same can be true of IT. I remember a time before PCs and most work was done on Mainframes and paper w/file cabinets.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I understand your point but it lacks accuracy in that mainframes, paper and filing cabinets are deterministic tools. AI is neither deterministic nor a tool.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879966"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;signatoremo 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; AI is neither deterministic nor a tool&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You keep repeating this in this thread, but as has been refuted elsewhere, this doesn't mean AI is not productive. A tool it definitely can be. Your handwriting is non deterministic, yet you could write reports with it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880816"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;codr7 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Yes, but the one thing computers had going for them over humans was determinism, and we just threw that out the window.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884605"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;signatoremo 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;We did not throw that out the window. AI is new capability on top of what the computer is already capable of&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889849"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;codr7 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;No, AI is a computer pretending (badly) to be human.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880087"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;thowawatp302 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;If AI isn’t either of those things, then what is it?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881108"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;xigency 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Unironically it's a form of occult divination. I know it sounds crazy but it really is the synthesis of humans' collective works combined with some dice rolls. I'm quite honestly surprised someone more superstitious than I am hasn't raised this point yet (that I've seen).&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885743"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bgwalter 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;AI has certainly created new work for the GCC project. They had to implement a scraper protection from the bots run by corporations who benefit for free from GCC but want to milk it even further:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2025-April/245954.html&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879389"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nialv7 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Work will expand to fill the time available.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(I know this is not the commonly accepted meaning of Parkinson's law.)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880455"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;analog31 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;This reminds me of a thought I had about driver-less trucks. The truck drivers who get laid off will be re-employed as security guards to protect the automated trucks from getting robbed.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880604"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;crazygringo 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;That's an amusing idea, but won't happen. Trucks will just be made more secure, that much harder to open, if theft starts to increase.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881944"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;layer8 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Only if that’s cheaper than security guards. “Just” hiring security guards may be more cost-effective than “just” making trucks more robbery-resistant.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43882463"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;crazygringo 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Of course it's going to be cheaper.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If a truck has a lifetime of 20 years, that's 20 years' worth of paying a security guard for it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You really think it could take 20 years' worth of human effort in labor and materials to make a truck more secure? The price of the truck itself in the first place doesn't even come close to that.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880798"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nvk255 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Yeah, that finding about verification tasks eating the time savings makes total sense. Since AI output is probabilstic, you always need a independent human check, right ? .. that also feels like a shifting bottleneck.. maybe you speed up the coding part but then get bogged down in testing or integration, or the scope just expands to fill the saved time. Plus, how much AI actually helps seems super task dependent, and can vary quite a bit depending on what you are doing&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879545"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bilsbie 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Seems obvious: If AI lets you produce more of your product then there would be more work added as well. Sales, maintenance, etc.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884126"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;hwillis 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Indeed, the reported productivity benefits were modest in the study. Users reported average time savings of just 2.8 percent of work hours (about an hour per week).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5219933&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Our main finding is that AI chatbots have had minimal impact on adopters’ economic outcomes. Difference-in-differences estimates for earnings, hours, and wages are all precisely estimated zeros, with confidence intervals ruling out average effects larger than 1%. At the occupation level, estimates are similarly close to zero, generally excluding changes greater than 6%.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883075"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;cadamsdotcom 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;2023-24 models couldn’t be relied on at smaller levels thanks to hallucinations and poor instruction following; newer models are much better and that trend will keep going. That low level reliability allows models to be a building block for bigger systems. Check out this personal assistant done by Nate Herk, a youtuber who builds automations with n8n:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZP4fjVWKt2w&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It’s early. There are new skills everyone is just getting the hang of. If the evolution of AI was mapped to the evolution of computing we would be in the era of “check out this room-sized bunch of vacuum tubes that can do one long division at a time”.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But it’s already exciting, so just imagine how good things will get with better models and everyone skilled in the art of work automation!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885119"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;matt3210 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I feel that I spend a lot more time Looking out for hidden Easter eggs in code reviews. Easter eggs being small errors that look right but hard to catch, but obvious to the one who wrote it. The problem is that the LLM wrote it so we have no benefit of the code author during review or testing.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879858"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;kotaKat 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;All of our communications at my organization that have clearly been run through Copilot (as we seem to keep championing in some kind of bizarre wankfest) lead me to have to waste a significant sum of time to read and decipher the slop.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;What could have been a single paragraph turns into five separate bulleted lists and explanations and fluff.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881020"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;iknowSFR 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Is the communication for you or for other AI tools? Meaning is your eventual role just making sure it’s within reason and keeping the AI to AI ecosystem functioning properly? If the output is missing something or misrepresenting something, you update.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Your responsibility is now as an AI response mechanic. And someone else that’s ingesting your AI’s output is making sure their AI’s output on your output is reasonable.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This obviously doesn’t scale well but does move the “doing” out of human hands, replacing that time with a guardrail responsibility.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43883816"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;CaptainFever 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;This is what the "AI will be a normal technology" camp is telling the "AI is going to put us all out of work!" camp all along. It's always been like this.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879432"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zubiaur 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Thats called a productivity increase. Finally. We were due for one.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879848"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;linkjuice4all 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;It’s somewhat exciting to see the commodification of AI models and hardware. At first I was concerned that the hyperscalers would just own the whole thing as a service that keeps squeezing you.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But if model development and self hosting become financially feasible for the majority of organizations then this might really be a “democratized” productivity boost.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880620"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;throwaway98465 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The hyperscalers will always own the best models, and even if you're willing to excuse that, requiring organization-levels of funding to run a decent model locally hardly makes the tech "democratized". Sure, you'll always be able to run ${LOCAL_MODEL} on your personal hardware, but that might be akin to programming using Notepad if the gap with the best models in the market is wide enough.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884085"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;hwillis 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&amp;gt; Indeed, the reported productivity benefits were modest in the study. Users reported average time savings of just 2.8 percent of work hours (about an hour per week).&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881097"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;m3kw9 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;It’s just math, we tend to like to add and add, more and more. To think AI will take out all work for humans is likely false. Humans always find a problem. You solved your money problem? You are gonna have another problem like and existential crisis problem and that creates more stuff. Just an extreme example&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879003"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;throw0101b 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This has probably been true of all invention / automation: when we went from handwashing to using washing machines, did we start doing more leisurely things for the hours that were saved by that 'labour saving' device?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Now it is true that the needs of human beings may seem to be insatiable. But they fall into two classes --those needs which are absolute in the sense that we feel them whatever the situation of our fellow human beings may be, and those which are relative in the sense that we feel them only if their satisfaction lifts us above, makes us feel superior to, our fellows. Needs of the second class, those which satisfy the desire for superiority, may indeed be insatiable; for the higher the general level, the higher still are they. But this is not so true of the absolute needs-a point may soon be reached, much sooner perhaps than we are all of us aware of, when these needs are satisfied in the sense that we prefer to devote our further energies to non-economic purposes.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;[...]&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; For many ages to come the old Adam will be so strong in us that everybody will need to do some work if he is to be contented. We shall do more things for ourselves than is usual with the rich to-day, only too glad to have small duties and tasks and routines. But beyond this, we shall endeavour to spread the bread thin on the butter-to make what work there is still to be done to be as widely shared as possible. Three-hour shifts or a fifteen-hour week may put off the problem for a great while. For three hours a day is quite enough to satisfy the old Adam in most of us!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* John Maynard Keynes, "Economic Possibilities for our Grandchildren" (1930)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* http://www.econ.yale.edu/smith/econ116a/keynes1.pdf&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;An essay putting forward / hypothesizing four reasons on why the above did not happen (We haven't spread the wealth around enough; People actually love working; There's no limit to human desires; Leisure is expensive):&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* https://www.vox.com/2014/11/20/7254877/keynes-work-leisure&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We probably have more leisure time (and fewer hours worked: five versus six days) in general, but it's still being filled (probably especially in the US where being "productive" is an unofficial religion).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879795"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;rainsford 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;One additional factor to consider is that in most cases those setting the leisure hours (i.e. employers) are not the same ones enjoying the leisure (i.e. employees). While the leisure/productivity tradeoff applies to an individual, an economically rational employer only really values productivity and will only offer as much leisure time as necessary to attract and retain employees. So while social forces do generally push for additional leisure over time, such as shorter work weeks, it's often challenging for people to find the type of employment situation where they have significant flexibility in trading off income for leisure time.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As an example, I have a pretty good paying, full-time white collar job. It would be much more challenging if not impossible to find an equivalent job making half as much working 20 hours a week. Of course I could probably find some way to apply the same skills half-time as a consultant or whatever, but that comes with a lot of tradeoffs besides income reduction and is less readily available to a lot of people.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Maybe the real exception here is at the top of the economic ladder, although at that point the mechanism is slightly different. Billionaires have pretty infinite flexibility on leisure time because their income is almost entirely disconnected from the amount of "labor" they put in.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879182"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;skywhopper 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;What?? What do you think we’re doing instead of handwashing clothes exactly?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879662"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Swizec 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; What?? What do you think we’re doing instead of handwashing clothes exactly?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The average American spends almost 3 hours per day on social media. [1]&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The average American spends 1.5 hours per day watching streaming media. [2]&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That’s a lot washed clothes right there.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;[1] https://soax.com/research/time-spent-on-social-media&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;[2] https://www.nielsen.com/news-center/2024/time-spent-streamin...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879108"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;selfhoster 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Washing machines are deterministic. Automation is deterministic. AI is not deterministic. AI is not a tool. AI is destined to be what it is now, a parlor trick designed to passify and amuse.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879361"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ta988 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;You will have to explain your logic to go from determinism to usefulness. Are you dismissing people's experiences because they don't fit in your analysis frame so they HAVE to be misled because your analysis HAS to be right?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879529"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;warkdarrior 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Driving is not deterministic, yet commercial trucking is a core part of the US economy and definitely a productivity boost over trains, mules, and whatever else was before.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879818"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mystraline 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Depends.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you run your own LLM, and you don't update the training data, that IS deterministic.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And, it is a powerful tool.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884824"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Animats 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Wasn't this covered a few days ago? One point here is that the data is from late 2023, before LLMs were any good. Another point is that the data was collected from remaining workers after any layoffs.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881304"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ModernMech 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;It's like when they widen a highway yet the traffic jam persists.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881583"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tennisflyi 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Yes. Companies aren’t going to allow you to relax with said new time&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885068"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;cmsefton 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Previous discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43830613&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43878926"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;yawboakye 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;there's always more work to do. the workforce is always tied up in a few areas of work. once they're freed, they're able to work in new areas. the unemployment due to technological development isn't due to a reduction in work (as in quantity of work available and/or necessary). the more efficient we become, the more work areas we open up.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884137"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;hwillis 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Indeed, the reported productivity benefits were modest in the study. Users reported average time savings of just 2.8 percent of work hours (about an hour per week).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5219933&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Our main finding is that AI chatbots have had minimal impact on adopters’ economic outcomes. Difference-in-differences estimates for earnings, hours, and wages are all precisely estimated zeros, with confidence intervals ruling out average effects larger than 1%. At the occupation level, estimates are similarly close to zero, generally excluding changes greater than 6%.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879177"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nico 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; there's always more work to do&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Right on point&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As shown by never-shrinking backlogs&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Todo lists always grow&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The crucial task ends up being prioritizing, ie. figuring out what to put in priority at the current moment&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886291"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;xyst 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;AI craze has been such an awful joke. We are burning Earth’s resources at an alarming rate for minimal gains at best.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880908"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;cess11 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;So this study says people are producing more profit. The important question is whether they get it or someone else does.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884134"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;hwillis 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;It does not.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Indeed, the reported productivity benefits were modest in the study. Users reported average time savings of just 2.8 percent of work hours (about an hour per week).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5219933&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Our main finding is that AI chatbots have had minimal impact on adopters’ economic outcomes. Difference-in-differences estimates for earnings, hours, and wages are all precisely estimated zeros, with confidence intervals ruling out average effects larger than 1%. At the occupation level, estimates are similarly close to zero, generally excluding changes greater than 6%.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892701"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;cess11 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;To me it looks like your conclusion does not follow from those quotes. Four hours per month ought to sum up to an extra week of vacation per year, even if the labour buyer takes some of it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43881102"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;iLoveOncall 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is an insane clickbait, and none of the comments seem to have read further than the title.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There are two metrics in the study:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; AI chatbots save time across all exposed occupations (for 64%–90% of users)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;and&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; AI chatbots have created new job tasks for 8.4% of workers&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There's absolutely no indication anywhere in the study that the time saved is offset by the new work created. The percentages for the two metrics are so vastly different that it's fairly safe to assume it's not the case.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884100"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;hwillis 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Indeed, the reported productivity benefits were modest in the study. Users reported average time savings of just 2.8 percent of work hours (about an hour per week).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5219933&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Our main finding is that AI chatbots have had minimal impact on adopters’ economic outcomes. Difference-in-differences estimates for earnings, hours, and wages are all precisely estimated zeros, with confidence intervals ruling out average effects larger than 1%. At the occupation level, estimates are similarly close to zero, generally excluding changes greater than 6%.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885537"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;iLoveOncall 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Again, none of this, especially the calculation about economic output, indicates that the new work it generated led offset the time it saved.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If people save an hour a week and use that to browse HackerNews, they've saved time but haven't produced any economic value, but it doesn't mean they didn't save time.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879906"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;esafak 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;As long as they can capture some of the productivity gains, this is good news for workers.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43884130"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;hwillis 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Indeed, the reported productivity benefits were modest in the study. Users reported average time savings of just 2.8 percent of work hours (about an hour per week).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5219933&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Our main finding is that AI chatbots have had minimal impact on adopters’ economic outcomes. Difference-in-differences estimates for earnings, hours, and wages are all precisely estimated zeros, with confidence intervals ruling out average effects larger than 1%. At the occupation level, estimates are similarly close to zero, generally excluding changes greater than 6%.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43885676"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bgwalter 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;""The adoption of these chatbots has been remarkably fast," Humlum told The Register about the study. "Most workers in the exposed occupations have now adopted these chatbots... But then when we look at the economic outcomes, it really has not moved the needle."&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;How does that comply with the GDPR? OpenAI now has all sensitive data?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The article markets the study as Danish. However, the working paper is from the Becker Friedman Institute of the University of Chicago:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5219933&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It is no wonder that the Chicago School of Economics will not find any impact of AI on employment. Calling it Danish to imply some European "socialist" values is deceptive.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879749"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;fortyseven 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;That's why they say never give 110 percent, because they'll come to expect that all the time. Workload abhors a vacuum.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43886272"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;kranke155 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;It’s the same since industrialisation, it’s not that we have less work, we have less of some type of work.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The issue is that after automation the “old” jobs often don’t pay well, and the new jobs that do are (by virtue of the multiplier of technology) actually scarcer than the ones it replaced.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;While in a craftsmanship society you had people painting plates for the well to do, factories started mass painting plates for everyone to own.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Now this solved the problem of scarcity, which is great. But it created a new problem which is all those craftsmen are now factory workers whose output is more replaceable. If you’re more replaceable your wages are lower due to increased competition.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Now for some things this is great, but Marx’s logic was that if technology kept making Capital able to use less and less Labour (increasing profits) then eventually a fairly small number of people would own almost everything.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Like most visionaries he was incredibly off on his timeline, and he didn’t predict a service economy after we had overabundance of goods.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So yet again Marx’s logic will be put to the test and yet again we will see the results. I still find that his logic seems fairy solid, although like many others I don’t agree with the solutions.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I wonder how well the this will hold up against AI.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43880009"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;andrethegiant 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Always has been&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43879808"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;vjvjvjvjghv 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think we may be reaching a point where tech is better at almost everything. When I look at my workplace , there are only a few people who do stuff that’s truly creative. Everybody else does work that’s maybe difficult but fundamentally still very mechanical and in principle automatable.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Add to that progress in robotics and we may reach a point where humans are not needed anymore for most tasks. Then the capitalists will have fully automated factories but nobody who can buy their products.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Maybe capitalism had a good run for the last 200 years and a new economic system needs to arise. Whatever that will be.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43882325"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mrandish 7 months ago | prev [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Based on the history of technology, this is overwhelmingly the expected result of technology-enabled automation - despite every time pundits claiming "but this time it'll be different."&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;p&gt;Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/body&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">9f74e0602a406424</guid>
      <category>jobs</category>
      <category>automation</category>
      <category>study</category>
      <category>ai</category>
      <category>work</category>
      <pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2025 18:36:23 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>How We Launch a User-facing Feature Every Week - Elicit</title>
      <link>https://elicit.com/blog/launching-a-feature-every-week/</link>
      <description>Elicit has launched a new user-facing feature nearly every week since 2021, making iteration at speed our core practice. We know how to do it well.</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">67de6da340ece6db</guid>
      <category>launch</category>
      <pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2025 18:36:24 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Accelerating scientific breakthroughs with an AI co-scientist</title>
      <link>https://research.google/blog/accelerating-scientific-breakthroughs-with-an-ai-co-scientist/</link>
      <description>&lt;div&gt;&lt;title&gt;&lt;p&gt;Accelerating scientific breakthroughs with an AI co-scientist&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/title&gt;&lt;body data-env="production" data-gt-page-path="https://research.google/blog/accelerating-scientific-breakthroughs-with-an-ai-co-scientist/"&gt;&lt;header&gt;&lt;p&gt;Jump to Content&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Research&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Research&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/header&gt;&lt;main id="page-content"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;section data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="basic_hero"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div aria-label="Video Play/pause"&gt;&lt;div&gt;play silent looping video pause silent looping video&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div aria-label="Video Mute/Unmute"&gt;&lt;div&gt;unmute video mute video&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;h1&gt;Accelerating scientific breakthroughs with an AI co-scientist&lt;/h1&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;February 19, 2025&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Juraj Gottweis, Google Fellow, and Vivek Natarajan, Research Lead&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;section data-gt-component-name="Blog Summary" data-gt-id="blog_summary"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="gqryz"&gt;We introduce AI co-scientist, a multi-agent AI system built with Gemini 2.0 as a virtual scientific collaborator to help scientists generate novel hypotheses and research proposals, and to accelerate the clock speed of scientific and biomedical discoveries.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;h2&gt;Quick links&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;AI co-scientist paper&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Gene transfer discovery paper&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Transfer re-discovery paper&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;×&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-publish-date="20250219"&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="rich_text"&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="685z4"&gt;In the pursuit of scientific advances, researchers combine ingenuity and creativity with insight and expertise grounded in literature to generate novel and viable research directions and to guide the exploration that follows. In many fields, this presents a breadth and depth conundrum, since it is challenging to navigate the rapid growth in the rate of scientific publications while integrating insights from unfamiliar domains. Yet overcoming such challenges is critical, as evidenced by the many modern breakthroughs that have emerged from transdisciplinary endeavors. For example, Emmanuelle Charpentier and Jennifer Doudna won the 2020 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for their work on CRISPR, which combined expertise ranging from microbiology to genetics to molecular biology.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="bngi7"&gt;Motivated by unmet needs in the modern scientific discovery process and building on recent AI advances, including the ability to synthesize across complex subjects and to perform long-term planning and reasoning, we developed an AI co-scientist system. The AI co-scientist is a multi-agent AI system that is intended to function as a collaborative tool for scientists. Built on Gemini 2.0, AI co-scientist is designed to mirror the reasoning process underpinning the scientific method. Beyond standard literature review, summarization and “deep research” tools, the AI co-scientist system is intended to uncover new, original knowledge and to formulate demonstrably novel research hypotheses and proposals, building upon prior evidence and tailored to specific research objectives.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="rich_text"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;h2&gt;Empowering scientists and accelerating discoveries with the AI co-scientist&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="685z4"&gt;Given a scientist’s research goal that has been specified in natural language, the AI co-scientist is designed to generate novel research hypotheses, a detailed research overview, and experimental protocols. To do so, it uses a coalition of specialized agents — Generation, Reflection, Ranking, Evolution, Proximity and Meta-review — that are inspired by the scientific method itself. These agents use automated feedback to iteratively generate, evaluate, and refine hypotheses, resulting in a self-improving cycle of increasingly high-quality and novel outputs.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="dynamic_media"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div aria-label="Video Play/pause"&gt;&lt;div&gt;play silent looping video pause silent looping video&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div aria-label="Video Mute/Unmute"&gt;&lt;div&gt;unmute video mute video&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="hvksh"&gt;AI co-scientist overview.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="rich_text"&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="j3yy8"&gt;Purpose-built for collaboration, scientists can interact with the system in many ways, including by directly providing their own seed ideas for exploration or by providing feedback on generated outputs in natural language. The AI co-scientist also uses tools, like web-search and specialized AI models, to enhance the grounding and quality of generated hypotheses.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="dynamic_media"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="nb5b2"&gt;Illustration of the different components in the AI co-scientist multi-agent system and the interaction paradigm between the system and the scientist.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="rich_text"&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="685z4"&gt;The AI co-scientist parses the assigned goal into a research plan configuration, managed by a Supervisor agent. The Supervisor agent assigns the specialized agents to the worker queue and allocates resources. This design enables the system to flexibly scale compute and to iteratively improve its scientific reasoning towards the specified research goal.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="dynamic_media"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="nb5b2"&gt;AI co-scientist system overview. Specialized agents (red boxes, with unique roles and logic); scientist input and feedback (blue boxes); system information flow (dark gray arrows); inter-agent feedback (red arrows within the agent section).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="rich_text"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;h2&gt;Scaling test-time compute for advanced scientific reasoning&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="685z4"&gt;The AI co-scientist leverages test-time compute scaling to iteratively reason, evolve, and improve outputs. Key reasoning steps include self-play–based scientific debate for novel hypothesis generation, ranking tournaments for hypothesis comparison, and an "evolution" process for quality improvement. The system's agentic nature facilitates recursive self-critique, including tool use for feedback to refine hypotheses and proposals.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="7ufde"&gt;The system's self-improvement relies on the Elo auto-evaluation metric derived from its tournaments. Due to their core role, we assessed whether higher Elo ratings correlate with higher output quality. We analyzed the concordance between Elo auto-ratings and GPQA benchmark accuracy on its diamond set of challenging questions, and we found that higher Elo ratings positively correlate with a higher probability of correct answers.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="dynamic_media"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="nb5b2"&gt;Average accuracy of the AI co-scientist (blue line) and reference Gemini 2.0 (red line) responses on GPQA diamond questions, grouped by Elo rating. The Elo is an auto-evaluation and is not based on an independent ground truth.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="rich_text"&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="685z4"&gt;Seven domain experts curated 15 open research goals and best guess solutions in their field of expertise. Using the automated Elo metric we observed that the AI co-scientist outperformed other state-of-the-art agentic and reasoning models for these complex problems. The analysis reproduced the benefits of scaling test-time compute using inductive biases derived from the scientific method. As the system spends more time reasoning and improving, the self-rated quality of results improve and surpass models and unassisted human experts.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="dynamic_media"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="nb5b2"&gt;Performance of the AI co-scientist improves as the system spends more time in computation. This can be seen in the automated Elo metric gradually improving over other baselines. Top: Elo progression of the best rated hypothesis. Bottom: Elo progression of the average of top-10 hypotheses.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="rich_text"&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="685z4"&gt;On a smaller subset of 11 research goals, experts assessed the novelty and impact of the AI co-scientist–generated results compared to other relevant baselines; they also provided overall preference. While the sample size was small, experts assessed the AI co-scientist to have higher potential for novelty and impact, and preferred its outputs compared to other models. Further, these human expert preferences also appeared to be concordant with the previously introduced Elo auto-evaluation metric.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="dynamic_media"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="nb5b2"&gt;Human experts assessed the AI co-scientist results to have higher potential for novelty and impact (left) and preferred it compared to other models (right).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="rich_text"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;h2&gt;Validation of novel AI co-scientist hypotheses with real-world laboratory experiments&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="685z4"&gt;To assess the practical utility of the system’s novel predictions, we evaluated end-to-end laboratory experiments probing the AI co-scientist–generated hypotheses and research proposals in three key biomedical applications: drug repurposing, proposing novel treatment targets, and elucidating the mechanisms underlying antimicrobial resistance. These settings all involved expert-in-the-loop guidance and spanned an array of complexities:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="rich_text"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;h3&gt;Drug repurposing for acute myeloid leukaemia&lt;/h3&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="685z4"&gt;Drug development is an increasingly time-consuming and expensive process in which new therapeutics require many aspects of the discovery and development process to be restarted for each indication or disease. Drug repurposing addresses this challenge by discovering new therapeutic applications for existing drugs beyond their original intended use. But, due to the complexity of the task, it demands extensive interdisciplinary expertise.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="d494o"&gt;We applied the AI co-scientist to assist with the prediction of drug repurposing opportunities and, with our partners, validated predictions through computational biology, expert clinician feedback, and in vitro experiments.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="18gc5"&gt;Notably, the AI co-scientist proposed novel repurposing candidates for acute myeloid leukemia (AML). Subsequent experiments validated these proposals, confirming that the suggested drugs inhibit tumor viability at clinically relevant concentrations in multiple AML cell lines.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="dynamic_media"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="nb5b2"&gt;Dose-response curves of one of the three novel AI co-scientist–predicted AML repurposing drugs. KIRA6 inhibits KG-1 (AML cell line) viability at clinically relevant concentrations. Being able to reduce cancer cell viability at lower drug concentrations is advantageous for multiple reasons, e.g., as it reduces the potential for off-target side effects.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="rich_text"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;h3&gt;Advancing target discovery for liver fibrosis&lt;/h3&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="685z4"&gt;Identifying novel treatment targets is more complex than drug repurposing, and often leads to inefficient hypothesis selection and poor prioritization for in vitro and in vivo experiments. AI-assisted target discovery helps to streamline the process of experimental validation, potentially helping to reduce development time costs.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="8k4au"&gt;We probed the AI co-scientist system's ability to propose, rank, and generate hypotheses and experimental protocols for target discovery hypotheses, focusing on liver fibrosis. The AI co-scientist demonstrated its potential by identifying epigenetic targets grounded in preclinical evidence with significant anti-fibrotic activity in human hepatic organoids (3D, multicellular tissue cultures derived from human cells and designed to mimic the structure and function of the human liver). These findings will be detailed in an upcoming report led by collaborators at Stanford University.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="dynamic_media"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="nb5b2"&gt;Comparison of treatments derived from AI co-scientist–suggested liver fibrosis targets versus a fibrosis inducer (negative control) and an inhibitor (positive control). All treatments suggested by AI co-scientist show promising activity (p-values for all suggested drugs are &amp;lt;0.01), including candidates that possibly reverse a disease phenotype. Results are detailed in an upcoming report from our Stanford University collaborators.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="rich_text"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;h3&gt;Explaining mechanisms of antimicrobial resistance&lt;/h3&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="685z4"&gt;As a third validation, we focused on generating hypotheses to explain bacterial gene transfer evolution mechanisms related to antimicrobial resistance (AMR) — microbes' evolved mechanisms to resist infection-treating drugs. This is another complex challenge that involves understanding the molecular mechanisms of gene transfer (conjugation, transduction, and transformation) alongside the ecological and evolutionary pressures that drive AMR genes to spread.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="9a67g"&gt;For this test, expert researchers instructed the AI co-scientist to explore a topic that had already been subject to novel discovery in their group, but had not yet been revealed in the public domain, namely, to explain how capsid-forming phage-inducible chromosomal islands (cf-PICIs) exist across multiple bacterial species. The AI co-scientist system independently proposed that cf-PICIs interact with diverse phage tails to expand their host range. This in silico discovery, which had been experimentally validated in the original novel laboratory experiments performed prior to use of the AI co-scientist system, are described in co-timed manuscripts (1, 2) with our collaborators at the Fleming Initiative and Imperial College London. This illustrates the value of the AI co-scientist system as an assistive technology, as it was able to leverage decades of research comprising all prior open access literature on this topic.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="dynamic_media"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="nb5b2"&gt;Timeline of AI co-scientist re-discovery of a novel gene transfer mechanism. Blue: Experimental research pipeline timeline for cf-PICI mobilization discovery. Red: AI co-scientist development and recapitulation of these key findings (without prior knowledge).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="rich_text"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;h2&gt;Limitations and outlook&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="685z4"&gt;In our report we address several limitations of the system and opportunities for improvement, including enhanced literature reviews, factuality checking, cross-checks with external tools, auto-evaluation techniques, and larger-scale evaluation involving more subject matter experts with varied research goals. The AI co-scientist represents a promising advance toward AI-assisted technologies for scientists to help accelerate discovery. Its ability to generate novel, testable hypotheses across diverse scientific and biomedical domains — some already validated experimentally — and its capacity for recursive self-improvement with increased compute, demonstrate its potential to accelerate scientists' efforts to address grand challenges in science and medicine. We look forward to responsible exploration of the potential of the AI co-scientist as an assistive tool for scientists. This project illustrates how collaborative and human-centred AI systems might be able to augment human ingenuity and accelerate scientific discovery.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="rich_text"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;h2&gt;Announcing Trusted Tester access to the AI co-scientist system&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="685z4"&gt;We are excited by the early promise of the AI co-scientist system and believe it is important to evaluate its strengths and limitations in science and biomedicine more broadly. To facilitate this responsibly we will be enabling access to the system for research organizations through a Trusted Tester Program. We encourage interested research organizations around the world to consider joining this program here.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div data-gt-component-name="" data-gt-id="rich_text"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;h2&gt;Acknowledgements&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;p data-block-key="685z4"&gt;The research described here is a joint effort between many Google Research, Google Deepmind and Google Cloud AI teams. We thank our co-authors at Fleming Initiative and Imperial College London, Houston Methodist Hospital, Sequome, and Stanford University — José R Penadés, Tiago R D Costa, Vikram Dhillon, Eeshit Dhaval Vaishnav, Byron Lee, Jacob Blum and Gary Peltz. We appreciate Subhashini Venugopalan and Yun Liu for their detailed feedback on the manuscripts described here. We are also grateful to the many incredible scientists across institutions providing detailed technical and expert feedback — please refer to our report to see the voices and minds that aided this work. We also thank our teammates Resham Parikh, Taylor Goddu, Siyi Kou, Rachelle Sico, Amanda Ferber, Cat Kozlowski, Alison Lentz, KK Walker, Roma Ruparel, Jenn Sturgeon, Lauren Winer, Juanita Bawagan, Tori Milner, MK Blake, Kalyan Pamarthy for their support. Finally, we also thank John Platt, Michael Brenner, Zoubin Ghahramani, Dale Webster, Joelle Barral, Michael Howell, Susan Thomas, Jason Freidenfelds, Karen DeSalvo, Vladimir Vuskovic, Greg Corrado, Ronit Levavi Morad, Ali Eslami, Anna Koivuniemi, Royal Hansen, Andy Berndt, Noam Shazeer, Oriol Vinyals, Burak Gokturk, Amin Vahdat, Katherine Chou, Avinatan Hassidim, Koray Kavukcuoglu, Pushmeet Kohli, Yossi Matias, James Manyika, Jeff Dean and Demis Hassabis for their support.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;section data-gt-component-name="Blog Labels" data-gt-id="blog_labels"&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;p&gt;Labels:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;li&gt;Generative AI&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Health &amp;amp; Bioscience&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Human-Computer Interaction and Visualization&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;h2&gt;Quick links&lt;/h2&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;AI co-scientist paper&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Gene transfer discovery paper&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Transfer re-discovery paper&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;×&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;section data-gt-component-name="Related Blog Posts" data-gt-id="related_blog_posts"&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;h3&gt;Other posts of interest&lt;/h3&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;December 15, 2025Gemini provides automated feedback for theoretical computer scientists at STOC 2026Algorithms &amp;amp; Theory ·Generative AI ·Natural Language Processing&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;December 12, 2025Spotlight on innovation: Google-sponsored Data Science for Health Ideathon across AfricaConferences &amp;amp; Events ·Generative AI ·Global ·Health &amp;amp; Bioscience&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;December 10, 2025A differentially private framework for gaining insights into AI chatbot useGenerative AI ·Responsible AI ·Security, Privacy and Abuse Prevention&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;div id="imageModal"&gt;&lt;p&gt;× ❮ ❯&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/main&gt;&lt;footer&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;section&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Follow us&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/section&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/footer&gt;&lt;div id="dynamicImageModal"&gt;&lt;p&gt;×&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/body&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
      <guid isPermaLink="false">0cdf29104def27e9</guid>
      <category>breakthroughs</category>
      <category>ai</category>
      <category>research</category>
      <category>collaboration</category>
      <category>science</category>
      <pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2025 18:36:24 +0000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>I'd rather read the prompt | Hacker News</title>
      <link>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43888803</link>
      <description>&lt;div&gt;&lt;title&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'd rather read the prompt | Hacker News&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/title&gt;&lt;body&gt;&lt;table bgcolor="#f6f6ef" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" id="hnmain" width="85%"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td bgcolor="#ff6600"&gt;&lt;table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td&gt;login&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="bigbox"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr id="43888803"&gt;&lt;td&gt;I'd rather read the prompt (claytonwramsey.com)&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;1444 points by claytonwramsey 7 months ago | hide | past | favorite | 839 comments&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr id="43889425"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;necovek 7 months ago | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I've already asked a number of colleagues at work producing insane amount of gibberish with LLMs to just pass me the prompt instead: if LLM can produce verbose text with limited input, I just need that concise input too (the rest is simply made up crap).&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890252"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;kevinventullo 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Something I’ve found very helpful is when I have a murky idea in my head that would take a long time for me to articulate concisely, and I use an LLM to compress what I’m trying to say. So I type (or even dictate) a stream of consciousness with lots of parentheticals and semi-structured thoughts and ask it to summarize. I find it often does a great job at saying what I want to say, but better.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(See also the famous Pascal quote “This would have been a shorter letter if I had the time”).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;P.s. for reference I’ve asked an LLM to compress what I wrote above. Here is the output:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;When I have a murky idea that’s hard to articulate, I find it helpful to ramble—typing or dictating a stream of semi-structured thoughts—and then ask an LLM to summarize. It often captures what I mean, but more clearly and effectively.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892160"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dkdbejwi383 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Like the linked article, I’d rather read your original text, even if it’s less structured and rough&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892211"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;solaire_oa 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Agreed, the messiness of the original text has character and humanity that is stripped from the summarized text. The first text is an original thought, exchanged in a dialogue, imperfectly.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Elsewhere in this comment section, it's discussed about the importance of having original thought, which the summarized text specifically isn't, and has leeched away.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The parent comment has actually made the case against the summarized text being "better" (if we're measuring anything that isn't word count).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892804"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;procaryote 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Learning to articulate your thoughts is pretty vital in learning to think though.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;An LLM could make something sound articulate even if your input is useless rambling containing the keywords you want to think about. Having someone validate a lack of thought as something useful doesn't seem good for you in the long term&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43900479"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;kevinventullo 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Yeah, so the problem I’m solving is not that I don’t think enough about something, or even that I don’t think about it in the right way. “Murky” was maybe the wrong word. It’s more that I often find my audience does not have the longest attention span or forgiveness for sloppy writing; thus, the onus is on me to make my thoughts as easy to digest as possible.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43901625"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;handoflixue 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;As someone in a similar position, I have found I benefit from practicing - but also, LLMs are a really useful tool for that practice!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Learning how to condense what I say focuses me to think about what is and isn't important - and it also forces me to think in terms of "style" and "audience".&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(My natural writing style is much more verbose - I want to address all sorts of branching objections and tangential concepts. I find parenthesis really useful, because I can dump a bunch of stuff there and it's a clear marker that you can safely skip it all)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;LLMs are also useful, because I can ramble, work out my own summary, and then compare to the LLM. Or, when I was just starting out, ramble, get an LLM to summarize, and then try to work out my own summary that captures what it missed.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Aside from practice being inherently beneficial, I also find that being able to form my own summaries helps me catch when the LLM has misunderstood, hallucinated, or just subtly changed the emphasis - for instance, your original example was indeed much cleaner, but I wouldn't have felt like you were really truly a fellow rambler just from reading that.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Hopefully you don't mind a rambling post. If you want a TL;DR an LLM can probably do a decent job ;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(ChatGPT Summary: Practicing summarization improves clarity, audience awareness, and writing focus—especially for naturally verbose thinkers. LLMs are helpful tools for this, both as a comparison point and a learning aid. Writing your own summaries sharpens understanding and helps catch LLM misinterpretations or emphasis shifts.)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(Yeah, that seems pretty accurate)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892909"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;seabass 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Your original here is distinctly better! It shows your voice and thought patterns. All character is stripped away in the "compressed" version, which unsurprisingly is longer, too.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895663"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chipsrafferty 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;What do you mean it's longer? It's shorter.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889778"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;kace91 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;“Someone sent me this ai generated message. Please give me your best shot at guessing the brief prompt that originated the text”.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Done, now ai is just lossy prettyprinting.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890214"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;agentultra 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;An incredible use of such advanced technology and gobs of energy.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891972"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;genewitch 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;What will me make the rocks with lightning in do next?!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891889"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;phamilton 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Jokes aside, this happens all the time.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I have it write doc strings. I later ask it to explain a section of code, wherein it uses the doc strings to understand and explain the code to me.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;A less lossy way to capture this will probably emerge at some point.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889966"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ortusdux 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;https://marketoonist.com/2023/03/ai-written-ai-read.html&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889908"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;roarcher 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Recently I wasted half a day trying to make sense of story requirements given to me by a BA that were contradictory and far more elaborate than we had previously discussed. When I finally got ahold of him he confessed that he had run the actual requirements through ChatGPT and "didn't have time to proofread the results". Absolutely infuriating.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890382"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;SchemaLoad 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is how I've felt about using LLMs for things like writing resumes and such. It can't possibly give you more than the prompt since it doesn't know anything more about you than you gave it in the prompt.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's much more useful for answering questions that are public knowledge since it can pull from external sources to add new info.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890822"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;thomasahle 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;The one case where this doesn't work, is if the prompt is, say 3 ideas, which the LLM expand to 20, and the colleague then trimmed down to 10.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Ideally there's some selection done, and the fact you're receiving it means it's better than a mean answer. But sometimes they haven't even read the LLM output themselves :-(&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890111"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ponector 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Chatgpt very useful for adding softness and politeness to my sentences. Would you like more straight forward text which probably will be rude for regular american?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890361"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lttlrck 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Yes. I can't stand waffle from native or non-native speakers. Waste of electrons and oxygen :-) that might just be me however. Know your audience ;-)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891911"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;phamilton 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;If we can detach content and presentation, then the reader can choose tone and length.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;At some point we will stop making decisions about what future readers want. We will just capture the concrete inputs and the reader's LLM will explain it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43894144"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;walleeee 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't think form and function can be separated so cleanly in natural language. However you encode what's between your ears into text, you've made (re)presentational choices.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;A piece of text does not have a single inherently correct interpretation. Its meaning is a relation constructed at run- (i.e. read-)time between the reader, the writer, and (possibly) the things the text refers to, that is if both sides are well enough aligned to agree on what those are.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Words don't speak, they only gesture.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895193"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;phamilton 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;My LLM workflow involves a back-and-forth clarification (verbose input -&amp;gt; LLM asks questions) that results in a rich context representing my intent. Generating comments/docs from this feels lossy.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;What if we could persist this final LLM context state? Think of it like a queryable snapshot of the 'why' behind code or docs. Instead of just reading a comment, you could load the associated context and ask an LLM questions based on the original author's reasoning state.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes, context is model-specific, a major hurdle. And there are many other challenges. But ignoring the technical implementation for a moment, is this concept – capturing intent via persistent, queryable LLM context – a valuable problem to solve? I feel it would be.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43896411"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;necovek 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's no accident most of the software development world gravitated toward free and open source tooling: proprietary tool-specific code and build recipes have the same gotchas as the model-specific context would have today.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So perhaps switching to open-source models of sufficient "power" will obsolete that particular concern (they would be a "development dependency", just like a linter, compiler or code formatter are today).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895943"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;walleeee 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;It sounds worthwhile. I just wonder how you envision the author encoding their reasoning state. If as (terse) text, how would the author know the LLM successfully unpacks its meaning without interrogating it in detail, and then fine-tuning the prompt? And at that point, it would probably be faster to just write more verbose docs or comments?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;What about a tool that simply allows other developers to hover over some code and see any relevant conversations the developer had with a model? Version the chat log and attach it to the code basically.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43901151"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;which probably will be rude&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;as long as the text isn't at risk of being written up by HR, I don't particularly care about the tone of the message.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892198"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;blt 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;yes&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890825"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Falimonda 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;And you do what with the prompt once you have it?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43896424"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;necovek 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Get all the information of value that was hidden behind 2-10k words generated by an LLM.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888949"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bost-ty 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I like the author's take: it isn't a value judgement on the individual using ChatGPT (or Gemini or whichever LLM you like this week), it's that the thought that went into making the prompt is, inevitably, more interesting/original/human than the output the LLM generates afterwards.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In my experiments with LLMs for writing code, I find that the code is objectively garbage if my prompt is garbage. If I don't know what I want, if I don't have any ideas, and I don't have a structure or plan, that's the sort of code I get out.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'd love to hear any counterpoints from folks who have used LLMs lately to get academic or creative writing done, as I haven't tried using any models lately for anything beyond helping me punch through boilerplate/scaffolding on personal programming projects.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889304"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;vunderba 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is the CRUX of the issue. Even with SOTA models (Sonnet 3.5, etc) - the more open-ended your prompt - the more banal and generic the response. It's GIGO turtles all the way down.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I pointed this out a few weeks ago with respect to why the current state of LLMs will never make great campaign creators in Dungeons and Dragons.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We as humans don't need to be "constrained" - ask any competent writer to sit quietly and come up with a novel story plot and they can just do it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43677863&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That being said - they can still make AMAZING soundboards.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And if you still need some proof, crank the temperature up to 1.0 and pose the following prompt to ANY LLM:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;pre&gt;Come up with a self-contained single room of a dungeon that involves an unusual puzzle for use with a DND campaign. Be specific in terms of the puzzle, the solution, layout of the dungeon room, etc. It should be totally different from anything that already exists. Be imaginative.&lt;/pre&gt;&lt;p&gt;I guarantee 99% of the returns will return a very formulaic physics-based puzzle response like "The Resonant Hourglass", or "The Mirror of Acoustic Symmetry", etc.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891749"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;WatchDog 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;When using Claude Sonnet 3.7 for coding, I often find that constraints I add to the prompt, end up producing unintended side effects.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Some examples:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- "Don't include pointless comments." - The model doesn't keep track of what it's doing as well, I generally just do another pass after it writes the code to simplify things.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- "Keep things simple" - The model cuts corners(often unnecessarily) on things like type safety.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- "Allow exceptions to bubble up" - Claude deletes existing error handling logic. I found that Claude seems to prefer just swallowing errors and adding some logging, instead of fixing the underlying cause of the error, but adding this to the prompt just caused it to remove the error handling that I had added myself.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43909267"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;remich 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The unfortunate implication to this is that many codebases Claude has been trained on just choose not to handle errors...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889836"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnfn 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; I guarantee 99% of the returns will return a very formulaic physics-based puzzle response like "The Resonant Hourglass"&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Haha, I was suspicious, so I tried this, and I indeed got an hourglass themed puzzle! Though it wasn't physics-based - characters were supposed to share memories to evoke emotions, and different emotions would ring different bells, and then you were supposed to evoke a certain type of story. Honestly, I don't know what the hourglass had to do with it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890156"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sillysaurusx 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Temperature 1.0 results are awful regardless of domain. 0.7 to 0.8 is the sweet spot. No one seems to believe this till they see for themselves.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889464"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Nezteb 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Out of curiosity, I used your prompt but added "Do not make it a very formulaic physics-based puzzle."&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The output is pretty non-sensical: https://pastebin.com/raw/hetAvjSG&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889844"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;HPsquared 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;It is totally different from anything that exists. It fulfils the prompt, I suppose! It has to be crazy so you can be more certain it's unique. The prompt didn't say anything about it being good.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889905"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Y_Y 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I liked the puzzle and I think I could DM it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890509"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Aeolun 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Hardest part is ‘combining emotions on the mesh’ and all the realizations involved. You can do your own thing with the setup alone though.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892010"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Nezteb 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Yeah this was the part I found a little silly, mostly because I just couldn't visualize what that mesh looked like or how I would describe how to operate it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895744"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chipsrafferty 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;# The Synesthetic Challenge Chamber&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;## Room Layout&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The room is a simple 30-foot square with a single exit door that's currently sealed. In the center sits a large stone cube (roughly 5 feet on each side) covered in various textured surfaces - some rough like sandpaper, others smooth as glass, some with ridged patterns, and others with soft fabric-like textures.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Around the room, six distinct scent emitters are positioned, each releasing a different aroma (pine, cinnamon, ocean breeze, smoke, floral, and citrus). The room is otherwise empty except for a small stone pedestal near the entrance with a simple lever.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;## The Puzzle Concept&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This puzzle operates on "synesthetic translation" - converting sensory experiences across different senses. The core concept is entirely verbal and tactile, making it fully accessible without visual components.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;## How It Works&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;When players pull the lever, one of the scent emitters activates strongly, filling the room with that particular aroma. Players must then approach the central cube and touch the texture that corresponds to that smell according to a hidden synesthetic logic.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The connection between smells and textures follows this pattern: - Pine scent → ridged texture (like tree bark) - Cinnamon → rough, granular texture (like spice) - Ocean → smooth, undulating surface (like waves) - Smoke → soft, cloudy texture (like mist) - Floral → velvet-like texture (like petals) - Citrus → bumpy, pitted texture (like orange peel)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;After correctly matching three smell-texture pairs in sequence, the door unlocks. However, an incorrect match causes the lever to reset and a new random smell to emerge.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;## Communication &amp;amp; Accessibility&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The DM describes the smells verbally when they're activated and can describe the various textures when players explore the cube by touch. The entire puzzle can be solved through verbal description, touch, and smell without requiring sight.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For extra accessibility, the DM can add: - Distinct sounds that play when each scent is released - Textured surfaces that have subtle temperature differences - Verbal clues discovered through successful matches&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;## What Makes This Unique&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This puzzle uniquely relies on cross-sensory associations that aren't commonly used in dungeons. It: - Doesn't rely on visuals at all - Uses smell as a primary puzzle component (rare in D&amp;amp;D) - Creates unusual connections between different senses - Has no mathematical, musical, or traditional riddle elements - Can be experienced fully regardless of vision status - Creates interesting roleplaying opportunities as players discuss how different scents "feel" texturally&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For the DM, it's easy to describe and implement while still being conceptually unique. Players solve it through discussion, exploration, and experimentation rather than recalling common puzzle patterns.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889295"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Herring 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;In my experience Gemini can be really good at creative writing, but yes you have to prompt and edit it very carefully (feeding ideas, deleting ideas, setting tone, conciseness, multiple drafts, etc).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://old.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/1andqk8/gemini...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890000"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;CuriouslyC 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I use Gemini pretty much exclusively for creative writing largely because the long context lets you fit an entire manuscript plus ancillary materials, so it can serve as a solid beta reader, and when you ask it to outline a chapter it is very good at taking the events preceding and following into account. It's hard to overstate the value of having a decent beta reader that can iteratively review your entire work in seconds.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As a side note, I find the way that you interact with a LLM when doing creative writing is generally more important than the model. I have been having great results with LLMs for creative writing since ChatGPT 3.5, in part because I approach the model with a nucleus of a chapter and a concise summary of relevant details, then have it ask me a long list of questions to flesh out details, then when the questions stop being relevant I have have it create a narrative outline or rough draft which I can finish.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890155"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Herring 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Interesting. I think I'm a better editor so I use it as a writer, but it makes sense that it works the other way too for strong writers. Your way might even be better, since evaluating a text is likely easier than constructing a good text (Which is why your process worked even back with 3.5).&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893785"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;robotbikes 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I have a horrible time editing my own work. Decision paralysis and what not, but I did have the idea that a good way to practice would be editing the content of LLM generated fictional narratives. I think the point that many are making that LLMs are useful as cognitive aids that augment thinking rather than replacements for thinking. They can be used to train your mind by inspiring thoughts you wouldn't have came up with on your own.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891914"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;expensive_news 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I have mixed feelings. Generally I don’t think that LLM output should be used to create anything that a human is supposed to read, but I do carve out a big exception for people using LLMs for translation/writing in a second language.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;At the same time, however, the people who need to use an LLM for this are going to be the worst at identifying the output’s weaknesses, eg just as I couldn’t write Spanish text, I also couldn’t evaluate the quality of a Spanish translation that an LLM produced. Taken to an extreme, then, students today could rely on LLMs, trust them without knowing any better, and grow to trust them for everything without knowing anything, never even able to evaluate their quality or performance.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The one area that I do disagree with the author, though, is coding. As much as I like algorithms code is written to be read by computers and I see nothing wrong with computers writing it. LLMs have saved me tons of time writing simple functions so I can speed through a lot of the boring legwork in projects and focus on the interesting stuff.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think Miyazaki said it best: “I feel... humans have lost confidence“. I believe that LLMs can be a great tool for automating a lot of boring and repetitive work that people do every day, but thinking that they can replace the unique perspectives of people is sad.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893731"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;scsh 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I actually feel very strongly that code is very much written for us humans. Sure, it's a set of instructions that is intended to be machine read and executed but so much of _how_ code is written is very much focused on the human element that's been a part of software development. OOP, design patterns, etc. don't exist because there is some great benefit to the machines running the code. We humans benefit as the ones maintaining and extending the functionality of the application.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm not making a judgement about the use of LLMs for writing code, just that I do think that code serves the purpose of expressing meaning to machines as well as humans.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43901184"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;As much as I like algorithms code is written to be read by computers and I see nothing wrong with computers writing it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;unless you're the sole contributor, code is a collaborative effort and will be reviewed by peers to make sure you don't hit any landmines at best, or ruin the codebase at worst. unless you're writing codegen itself I very much would consider writing code as if a human is going to read it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;“I feel... humans have lost confidence“&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Confidence in their fellow man? yes. As the author said a lot of this reliance on AI without proper QA comes down to "nobody cares". Or at least that mentality. And apathy is just as contagious in an environment as passion. If we lose that passion and are simply doing a task to get by and clock out, we're doomed as a species.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890036"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sigotirandolas 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;For creative and professional writing, I found them useful for grammar and syntax review, or finding words from a fuzzy description.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For the structure, they are barely useful: Writing is about having such a clear understanding, that the meaning remains when reduced to words, so that others may grasp it. The LLM won't help much with that, as you say yourself.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890563"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;kergonath 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; I'd love to hear any counterpoints from folks who have used LLMs lately to get academic or creative writing done&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;They’re great at proofreading. They’re also good at writing conclusions and abstracts for articles, which is basically synthesising the results of the article and making it sexy (a task most scientists are hopelessly terrible at). With caveats:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- all the information needs to be in the prompt, or they will hallucinate;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- the result is not good enough to submit without some re-writing, but more than enough to get started and iterate instead of staring at a blank screen.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I want to use them to write methods sections, because that is basically the exact same information repeated in every article, but the actual sentences need to be different each time. But so far I don’t trust them to be accurate with technical details. They’re language models, they have no knowledge or understanding.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892245"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ziotom78 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Point two is critical. I have found that the best way for me is to avoid using copy-and-paste. Instead, I put the browser on the right corner of the screen and my text editor on the left, then transcribe the text word by word by typing it using the keyboard. In this way, my natural laziness is less likely to accept words, expressions, and sentences that are perhaps okay-ish but not 100% following my taste.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43896753"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;kergonath 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Good process, I will try this as well.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890530"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;riknos314 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;100% agree.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;LLMs may seem like magic buy they aren't. They operate within the confines of the context they're given. The more abstract the context, the more abstract the results.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I expect to need to give a model at least as much context as a decent intern would require.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Often asking the model "what information could I provide to help you produce better code" and then providing said information leads to vastly improved responses. Claude 3.7 sonnet in Cline is fairly decent at asking for this itself in plan mode.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;More and more I find that context engineering is the most important aspect of prompt engineering.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890966"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jes5199 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I use an LLM to brainstorm for a creative writing project. Mostly I ignore its suggestions! but, somehow having the chatter helps me see what I am trying to say&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43894769"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;altilunium 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Sometimes, good writing is like an NP-complete problem, hard to create, but easy to verify. If you have enough skill to distinguish good output from garbage, you can produce reasonably good results.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895194"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;hk__2 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Sometimes, good writing is like an NP-complete problem, hard to create, but easy to verify.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Doesn’t this match pretty much all human creation? It’s easier to judge a book that to write it, it’s easier to watch a rocket going up in the space than to build it, it’s easier to appreciate some Renaissance painting or sculpture than to actually make it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889385"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;echelon 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; I'd love to hear any counterpoints from folks who have used LLMs lately to get academic or creative writing done&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I commented in another thread. We're using image and video diffusion models for creative:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4NFXGMuwpY&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Still not a fan of LLMs.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889523"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;buu700 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think the author has a fair take on the types of LLM output he has experience with, but may be overgeneralizing his conclusion. As shown by his example, he seems to be narrowly focusing on the use case of giving the AI some small snippet of text and asking it to stretch that into something less information-dense — like the stereotypical "write a response to this email that says X", and sending that output instead of just directly saying X.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I personally tend not to use AI this way. When it comes to writing, that's actually the exact inverse of how I most often use AI, which is to throw a ton of information at it in a large prompt, and/or use a preexisting chat with substantial relevant context, possibly have it perform some relevant searches and/or calculations, and then iterate on that over successive prompts before landing on a version that's close enough to what I want for me to touch up by hand. Of course the end result is clearly shaped by my original thoughts, with the writing being a mix of my own words and a reasonable approximation of what I might have written by hand anyway given more time allocated to the task, and not clearly identifiable as AI-assisted. When working with AI this way, asking to "read the prompt" instead of my final output is obviously a little ridiculous; you might as well also ask to read my browser history, some sort of transcript of my mental stream of consciousness, and whatever notes I might have scribbled down at any point.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889802"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palata 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; the exact inverse of how I most often use AI, which is to throw a ton of information at it in a large prompt&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It sounds to me that you don't make the effort to absorb the information. You cherry-pick stuff that pops in your head or that you find online, throw that into an LLM and let it convince you that it created something sound.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;To me it confirms what the article says: it's not worth reading what you produce this way. I am not interested in that eloquent text that your LLM produced (and that you modify just enough to feel good saying it's your work); it won't bring me anything I couldn't get by quickly thinking about it or quickly making a web search. I don't need to talk to you, you are not interesting.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But if you spend the time to actually absorb that information, realise that you need to read even more, actually make your own opinion and get to a point where we could have an actual discussion about that topic, then I'm interested. An LLM will not get you there, and getting there is not done in 2 minutes. That's precisely why it is interesting.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889986"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;buu700 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;You're making a weirdly uncharitable assumption. I'm referring to information which I largely or entirely wrote myself, or which I otherwise have proprietary access to, not which I randomly cherry-picked from scattershot Google results.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Synthesizing large amounts of information into smaller more focused outputs is something LLMs happen to excel at. Doing the exact same work more slowly by hand just to prove a point to someone on HN isn't a productive way to deliver business value.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890072"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palata 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Doing the exact same work more slowly by hand just to prove a point to someone on HN isn't a productive way to deliver business value.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You prove my point again: it's not "just to prove a point". It's about internalising the information, improving your ability to synthesise and be critical.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Sure, if your only objective is to "deliver business value", maybe you make more money by being uninteresting with an LLM. My point is that if you get good at doing all that without an LLM, then you become a more interesting person. You will be able to have an actual discussion with a real human and be interesting.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890124"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;buu700 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Understanding or being interesting has nothing to do with it. We use calculators and computers for a reason. No one hires people to respond to API requests by hand; we run the code on servers. Using the right tool for the job is just doing my job well.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890251"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palata 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; We use calculators and computers for a reason. No one hires people to respond to API requests by hand; we run the code on servers&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We were talking about writing, not about vibe coding. We don't use calculators for writing. We don't use API requests for writing (except when we make an LLM write for us).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Using the right tool for the job is just doing my job well.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't know what your job is. But if your job is to produce text that is meant to be read by humans, then it feels like not being able to synthesise your ideas yourself doesn't make you excellent at doing your job.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Again maybe it makes you productive. Many developers, for instance, get paid for writing bad code (either because those who pay don't care about quality or can't make a difference, or something else). Vibe coding obviously makes those developers more productive. But I don't believe it will make them learn how to produce good code. Good for them if they make money like this, of course.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893545"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tpmoney 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; We were talking about writing, not about vibe coding. We don't use calculators for writing. We don't use API requests for writing (except when we make an LLM write for us).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We do however use them to summarize and transform data all the time. Consider the ever present spreadsheet. Huge amounts of data are thrown into spreadsheets and formulas are applied to that data to present us with graphs and statistics. You could do all of that by hand, and you'd probably have a much better "internalization" about what the data is. But most of the time, hand crafting graphs from raw data and internalizing it isn't useful or necessary to accomplish what you actually want to accomplish with the data.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893638"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palata 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;You seem to not make the difference between maths and, say, literature or history.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Do you actually think that an LLM can take, say, a Harry Potter book as an input, and give it a grade in such a way that everybody will always agree on?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And to go further, do you actually use LLMs to generate graphs and statistics from spreadsheet? Because that is probably a bad idea given that there are tools that actually do it right.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893744"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tpmoney 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Do you actually think that an LLM can take, say, a Harry Potter book as an input, and give it a grade in such a way that everybody will always agree on?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;No, but I also don't think a human can do that either. Subjective things are subjective. I'm not sure I understand how this connects to the idea you expressed that doing various tasks with automation tools like LLMs prevent you from "internalizing" the data, or why not "internalizing" data is necessarily a bad thing. Am I just misunderstanding your concern?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43894009"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palata 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yeah I think you don't understand my point.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Many of the posts I find here defending the use of LLMs focus on "profitability". "You ask me to give you 3 pages about X? I'll give you 3 pages about X and you may not even realise that I did not write them". I completely agree that it can happen and that LLMs, right now, are useful to hack the system. But if you specialise in being efficient at getting an LLM to generate 3 pages, you may become useless faster than you think. Still, I don't think that this is the point of the article, and it is most definitely not my point.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;My point is that while you specialise in hacking the system with an LLM, you don't learn about the material that goes into those 3 pages.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* If you are a student, it means that you are losing your time. Your role as a student is to learn, not to hack.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* More generally as a person, "I am a professional in summarising stuff I don't understand in a way that convinces me and other people who don't understand it either" is not exactly very sexy to me.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you want to get actual knowledge about something, you have to actually work on getting that knowledge. Moving it from an LLM to a word document is not it. Being knowledgeable requires "internalising" it. Such that you can talk about it at dinner. And have an opinion about it that is worth something to others. If your opinion is "ChatGPT says this, but with my expertise in prompting I can get it to say that", it's pretty much worthless IMHO. Except for tricking the system, in a way similar to "oh my salary depends on the number of bugs I fix? Let me introduce tons of easy-to-fix bugs then".&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890841"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;buu700 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;We were talking about writing, not about vibe coding.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;No one said anything about vibe coding. Using tools appropriately to accomplish tasks more quickly is just common sense. Deliberately choosing to pay 10x the cost for the same or equivalent output isn't a rational business decision, regardless of whether the task happens to be writing, long division, or anything else.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Just to be clear, I'm not arguing against doing things manually as a learning exercise or creative outlet. Sometimes the journey is the point; sometimes the destination is the point. Both are valid.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't know what your job is.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Here's one: prepping first drafts of legal docs with AI assistance before handing them off to lawyers for revision has objectively saved significant amounts of time and money. Without AI this would have been too time-consuming to be worthwhile, but with AI I've saved not only my own time but the costs of billable hours on phone calls to discuss requirements, lawyers writing first drafts on their own, and additional Q&amp;amp;A and revisions over email. Using AI makes it practical to skip the first two parts and cut down on the third significantly.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Here's another one: doing security audits of customer code bases for a company that currently advertises its use of AI as a cost-saving/productivity-enhancing mechanism. Before they'd integrated AI into their platform, I would frequently get rave reviews for the quality and professionalism of my issue reports. After they added AI writing assistance, nothing changed other than my ability to generate a greater number of reports in the same number of billable hours. What you're suggesting effectively amounts to choosing to deliver less value out of ego. I still have to understand my own work product, or I wouldn't be able to produce it even with AI assistance. If someone thinks that somehow makes the product less "interesting", well then I guess it's a good thing my job isn't entertainment.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893332"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palata 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Don't get me wrong: I don't deny that LLMs can help tricking other humans into believing that the text is more professional than it actually is. LLMs are engineered exactly for that.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'd be curious to know whether your legal documents are as good as without LLMs. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were worse, but cheaper. Talking about security audits, that's actually a problem I've seen: LLMs makes it harder to detect bad audits, and in my experience I have been more often confronted to bad security audits than to good ones.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For both examples, you say "LLMs are useful to make more money". I say "I believe that LLMs lower the quality of the work". It's not incompatible.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897290"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;buu700 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;There's no "tricking" involved, and no basis for your assumption that LLMs lower the quality of work. I would suggest that what you and the author are observing is actually the opposite effect: LLMs broadly help improve the quality of work, all else being equal. The caveat is that when all else is not equal, this manifests in bad work being improved to a level that's still bad. The issue here is students using advanced tooling as an excuse to be lazy and undercut their own learning process, not the tool itself. LLMs are just this generation's version of Wikipedia and spell check.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As much as the author rightfully complains about the example in the post, a version that only said "explain the downsides of Euler angles in robotics and suggest some alternatives" would obviously be far worse. In this case, the AI helped elevate clear F-level work to maybe a C. That's not an indictment of AI; it's an indictment of low-quality work. LLMs lower the bar to produce passable-looking bad work, but they also lower the bar to produce excellent work. The confirmation bias here is that we don't know how many cases of B-level work became A papers with AI assistance, because those instances don't stand out in the same way.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In the audit example, LLMs aren't doing the audit. They synthesize my notes into a useful starting point to nullify writer's block, and let me focus more of my time on the hard or unique aspects of a given report. It's like having an intern write the first draft for me, typically with some mistakes or oversights, occasionally with a valuable additional insight thrown in, and often with links to a few helpful references for the customer that I wouldn't necessarily have found and included on my own. That doesn't lower the quality; it improves it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As far as the legal example, it really depends on the complexity of a given instance and the guidance you've provided to your lawyers. A good lawyer won't sign off on something that fails to meet the requested quality bar (if anything, the financial incentive would be for them to err on the side of conservatism and toss out the draft you'd provided). But of course this all depends on you having a clear enough understanding of what you're trying to accomplish, and enough familiarity with legal documents and proficiency with language to shape everything into a passable first draft. AI speeds this up, but if you don't know what you're doing then the AI won't solve that for you. It's a tool like any other, and can be used properly or improperly.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43901213"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; deliver business value.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think that mindet directly correlates with the kind of AI hat prompted this article: "It doesn't matter" in your eyes. You don't see the task as important, only the output and that it makes you money. the craft is less important than what you can sell it for.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43901252"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;buu700 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;They're just different use cases. There's a difference between a learning exercise and a contractual engagement to deliver a product to a client.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43901324"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Yes, a learning exercise has a goal to extend your own knowledge. Business is, especially as of late, figuring out how to get the cheapest but still acceptable work to the recipient for the highest value. I suppose it's on the recipient for not checking the quality of their commission.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43901373"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;buu700 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I'm not sure why you're randomly insinuating otherwise, but I've only received positive feedback on the quality of my work.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889697"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;satisfice 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you present your AI-powered work to me, and I suspect you employed AI to do any of the heavy lifting, I will automatically discount any role you claim to have had in that work.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Fairly or unfairly, people (including you) will inexorably come to see anything done with AI as ONLY done with AI, and automatically assume that anyone could have done it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In such a world, someone could write the next Harry Potter and it will be lost in a sea of one million mediocre works that roughly similar. Hidden in plain sight forever. There would no point in reading it, because it is probably the same slop I could get by writing a one paragraph prompt. It would be too expensive to discover otherwise.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889847"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;buu700 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;To be clear, I'm not a student, nor do I disagree with academic honor codes that forbid LLM assistance. For anything that I apply AI assistance to, the extent to which I could personally "claim credit" is essentially immaterial; my goal is to get a task done at the highest quality and lowest cost possible, not to cheat on my homework. AI performs busywork that would cost me time or cost money to delegate to another human, and that makes it valuable.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm expanding on the author's point that the hard part is the input, not the output. Sure someone else could produce the same output as an LLM given the same input and sufficient time, but they don't have the same input. The author is saying "well then just show me the input"; my counterpoint is that the input can often be vastly longer and less organized or cohesive than the output, and thus less useful to share.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890461"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bsder 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; someone could write the next Harry Potter and it will be lost in a sea of one million mediocre works that roughly similar.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;To be fair, the first Harry Potter is a kinda average British boarding school story. Rowling is barely an adequate writer (and it shows badly in some of the later books). There was a reason she got rejected by so many publishers.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;However, Netscape was going nuts and the Internet was taking off. Anime was going nuts and produced some of the all time best anime. MTV animation went from Beavis and Butthead to Daria in this time frame. Authors were engaging with audiences on Usenet (see: Wheel of Time and Babylon 5). Fantasy had moved from counterculture for hardcore nerd boys to something that the bookish female nerds would engage with.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Harry Potter dropped onto that tinder and absolutely caught fire.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43901254"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't really assossiate harry potter's rise with that of the internet. By the time it lit the internet ablaze was in the 2000's, after the first few movies aired.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It certainly wasn't the writing that elevated it. I think it was as simple as tapping into an audience who for once wasn't raised as some nuclear family. a Cinderella esque tale of being whisked away from abuse mixed with a hero's journey towards his inevitable clash with the very evil that set this in motion.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The movies definiely helped too. The first few were very well done with excellent child actors. Watching many other fantasy adaptations try to replicate that really shows just how the stars align into making HP a success.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890869"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;satisfice 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I was surprised to find how not true that is when I eventually read the books for myself, long after they became a phenomenon. The books are well-crafted mystery stories that don't cheat the reader. All the clues are there, more or less, for you to figure out what's happening, yet she still surprises.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The world-building is meh at best. The magic system is perfunctory. But the characters are strong and the plot is interesting from beginning to end.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892237"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lmm 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; In such a world, someone could write the next Harry Potter and it will be lost in a sea of one million mediocre works that roughly similar. Hidden in plain sight forever. There would no point in reading it, because it is probably the same slop I could get by writing a one paragraph prompt. It would be too expensive to discover otherwise.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This has already been the case for decades. There are probably brilliant works sitting out there on AO3 or whatnot. But you'll never find them because it's not worth wading through the junk. AI merely accelerates what was already happening.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43901232"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;AI merely accelerates what was already happening.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think "merely" is underselling the magnitude of effect this can have. Asset stores overnight went form "okay I need to dig hard to find something good" to outright useless as it's flooded with unusable slop. Google somehow got worse overnight for technical searches that aren't heavily quieried.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I didn't really desire such accelerations for slop, thanks. At least I could feel good knowing human made slop was learned from sometimes.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891936"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nojs 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; it's that the thought that went into making the prompt is, inevitably, more interesting/original/human than the output the LLM generates afterwards&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think you are overestimating the people who submit this slop. It’s more like “here’s my assignment, what’s the answer”&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889497"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jsheard 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I'm far from the first to make this observation but LLMs are like anti-compression algorithms when used like that, a simple idea gets expanded into a bloated mess by an LLM, then sent to someone else who runs it through another LLM to summarize it back to something approximating the original prompt. Nobody benefits aside from Sam Altman and co, who get to pocket a cool $0.000000001 for enabling this pointless exercise.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889855"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;musicale 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; LLMs are like anti-compression algorithms when used like that, a simple idea gets expanded into a bloated mess by an LLM,&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think that's the answer:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;LLMs are primarily useful for data and text translation and reduction, not for expansion.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;An exception is repetitive or boilerplate text or code where a verbose format is required to express a small amount of information.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890056"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;derefr 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;There is one other very useful form of "expansion" that LLMs do.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you aren't aware: (high-parameter-count) LLMs can be used pretty reliably to teach yourself things.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;LLM base models "know things" to about the same degree that the Internet itself "knows" those things. For well-understood topics — i.e. subjects where the Internet contains all sorts of open-source textbooks and treatments of the subject — LLMs really do "know their shit": they won't hallucinate, they will correct you when you're misunderstanding the subject, they will calibrate to your own degree of expertise on the subject, they will make valid analogies between domains, etc.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Because of this, you can use an LLM as an infinitely-patient tutor, to learn-through-conversation any (again, well-understood) topic you want — and especially, to shore up any holes in your understanding.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(I wouldn't recommend relying solely on the LLM — but I've found "ChatGPT in one tab, Wikipedia open in another, switching back and forth" to be a very useful learning mode.)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;See this much-longer rambling https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43797121 for details on why exactly this can be better (sometimes) than just reading one of those open-source textbooks.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890681"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_AzMoo 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I use LLMs a huge amount in my work as a senior software engineer to flesh out the background information required to make my actual contributions understandable to those without the same background as me. eg, if I want to write a proposal on using SLO's and error budgets to make data driven decisions about which errors need addressing and which don't, inside a hybrid kubernetes and serverless environment, I could do a few things:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* Not provide background information and let people figure it out for themselves. This will not help me achieve my goals.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* Link them to Google's SRE book and hope they read it. Still not achieving my goals, because they won't.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* Spend 3 hours writing the relevant background information out for them to read as part of my proposal. This will achieve my goals, but take an extra 3 hours.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* Tell the LLM what I'm looking for and why, then let it write it for me in 2 minutes, instead of 3 hours. I can check it over, make sure it's got everything, refine it a little, and I've still saved 2.5 hours.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So for me, I think the author has missed a primary reason people use LLMs. It saves a bunch of time.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895275"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;necovek 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;For a teacher, they want to see you spend those 3h to see what you come up with, and if there's something they should direct your attention to, or something they should change in their instruction.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But ultimately, getting the concise summary for a complex topic (like SLIs and SLOs are) is brilliant, but would be even better if it was full of back-links to deeper dives around the Internet and the SRE book.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890807"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lazyasciiart 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;This usage had never occurred to me but including adequate background information is definitely something I struggle with - I'll definitely try this!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43912299"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;musicale 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Link them to Google's SRE book and hope they read it. Still not achieving my goals, because they won't&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If they won't read a relevant section of Google's book, why would they read an LLM-written version?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43959179"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;_AzMoo 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Because it's formatted as an introductory part of a document they're already going to read.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890197"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jcul 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yeah you're totally right with this use case.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It feels like the information is there strewn across the internet, in forums, Reddit posts, stack overflow, specs, books. But to trawl though it all was so time consuming. With an LLM you can quickly distill it down to just the information you need.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Saying that, I do feel like reading the full spec for something is a valuable exercise. There may be unknown unknowns that you can't even ask the LLM about. I was able to become a subject expert in different fields just but sitting down and reading through the specs / RFCs, while other colleagues continued to struggle and guess.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890344"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palata 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;To me:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If an LLM can help you understand an RFC, it's great. You're now relying on the RFC.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If an LLM can help you not rely on the RFC, you're doing it wrong.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891835"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mettamage 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is how I currently am relearning upper high school math. It’s tremendously helpful as I am a why guy.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Why is the angle called m? Why is a combination nPr * (1/r)? What is 1/r doing there?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I use mathacademy.com as my source of practice. Usually that’s enough but I tend to fall over if small details aren’t explained and I can’t figure out why those details are there.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In high school this was punished. With state of the art LLMs, I have a good tutor.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Also it’s satisfying to just upload a page in my own handwriting and it understands what I did, and is able to correct me there.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895329"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;necovek 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;The fact that we see lower grades as "punishment" is the root of the problem: grades are an assessment of our understanding level and competence on a topic.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Now, I know psychologically it's not as simple, and both society and ourselves equate academic (and professional, later on) success with personal worth, but that's a deeper, harder topic.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890178"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;valenterry 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;They are also useful for association. Imagine an LLM trained on documentation. Then you can retrieve info associated with your question.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This can go beyond just specific documentation but also include things like "common knowledge" which is what the other poster meant when they talked about "teaching you things".&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890354"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palata 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;In my experience, if the information I need is in the documentation, then I don't need the LLM. If it is not in the documentation, then the LLM will invent stuff that could be there but that isn't, and it's actually a loss of time.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893684"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;valenterry 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; In my experience, if the information I need is in the documentation, then I don't need the LLM&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;need is a strong word. Do you need to be able to do ctrl+F? Not really, you can just read it all. But maybe it's easier to do ctrl+F. Same with LLM. Just imagine it as a fuzzy ctrl+F. Can be useful.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43894519"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palata 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;The thing is, being able to read documentation is a skill.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Being really good at ctrl+F / LLM is not the same. I learn a lot just browsing through documentation, without searching anything in particular.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43900804"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Fuzzy isn't what I want to be when referring documentation. So much documentation is incomplete to begin with.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's the big issue with LLMs as of now; They reflect their American creators and never want to admit when they just can't answer a question. CTRL+F will in fact give me 0 results, which is more useful than a wrong result.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43901048"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;valenterry 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I agree.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;However, as a non-native speaker, I really like the fact that I can give the LLM some description of a word that I don't know and it'll figure it out. "those fruits that are kind of bitter but also make my tongue feel like it wants to curl" (= "adstringend" [sic] or so, but who remembers that word or can spell it correctly?)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;LLMs are basically like all those type-correction algorithms on steroids. Very helpful sometimes, even if it means I have to doublecheck their output.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43899982"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tobir 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Yeah, this is the usual interaction with LLMs when coding: Ask GPT/Claude to write me a simple function. It writes 100 lines of code, trying to infer the rest of your codebase. Tell it to only solve my issue and do it in 5 lines of code. Get something close to working.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895371"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chipsrafferty 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;IMO the main uses of LLM are guided problem solving and a better Google search that you can ask questions in a natural way.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Producing text as output is not the way&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890914"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jameshart 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Actually, pretty sure Sam Altman gets to spend that money on power and compute, not sure they’ve figured out how to turn it into an income stream yet.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891376"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;arealaccount 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I think they actually lose the $0.000001&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890703"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;devnullbrain 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yep. They're very closely linked.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;http://prize.hutter1.net/&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Note the preamble, FAQs, and that all of the winning entries are now neural networks.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890232"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;charlieyu1 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I blame humans. I never understand why unnecessarily long writing is required in a lot of places.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890465"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Aeolun 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Rituals are significant because they are long. A ritual that consisted of the words “Rain please” wouldn’t convince the gods, much less their human followers.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895872"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;necovek 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;"I have made this longer than usual because I have not had time to make it shorter." — attributed to many[1]&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The funny thing is that people use LLMs to do the opposite instead of what is implied to be a smarter thing to do with the above quote.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;[1] https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/04/28/shorter-letter/&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889760"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;throwawaysleep 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Depends on what you are looking for. I’ve turned half baked ideas into white papers for plenty of praise. I’ve used them to make my Jira tickets seem complicated and complete. I’ve used them to get praised for writing comprehensive documentation.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Part of my performance review is indirectly using bloat to seem sophisticated and thorough.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889959"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;musicale 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; comprehensive documentation&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Documentation is an interesting use case. There are various kinds of documentation (reference, tutorial, architecture, etc.) and LLMs might be useful for things like&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- repetitive formatting and summarization of APIs for reference&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- tutorials which repeat the same information verbosely in an additive, logical sequence (though probably a human would be better)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- sample code (though human-written would probably be better)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The tasks that I expect might work well involve repetitive reformatting, repetitive expansion, and reduction.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think they also might be useful for systems analysis, boiling down a large code base into various kinds of summaries and diagrams to describe data flow, computational structure, signaling, etc.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Still, there is probably no substitute for a Caroline Rose[1] type tech writer who carefully thinks about each API call and uses that understanding to identify design flaws.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;[1] https://folklore.org/Inside_Macintosh.html?sort=date&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890101"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chmod775 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes, but none of the current LLMs are even remotely useful doing that kind of work for even something moderately complex. I have a 2k LOC project that no LLM even "understands" *. They can't grasp what it is: It's a mostly react-compatible implementation of "hooks" to be used for a non-DOM application. Every code assistant thinks it's a project using React.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Any documentation they write at best re-states what is immediately obvious from the surrounding code (Useless: I need to explain why), or is some hallucination trying to pretend it's a React app.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;To their credit they've slowly gotten better now that a lot of documentation already exists, but that was me doing the work for them. What I needed them to do was understand the project from existing code, then write documentation for me.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Though I guess once we're at the point AI is that good, we don't need to write any documentation anymore, since every dev can just generate it for themselves with their favorite AI and in the way they prefer to consume it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* They'll pretend they understand by re-stating what is written in the README, then proceed to produce nonsense.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890177"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;justinclift 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I've found "Claude 3.7 Sonnet (Thinking)" to be pretty good at moderately complex code bases, after going through the effort to get it to be thorough.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Without that effort it's a useless sycophant and is functionally extremely lazy (ie takes short cuts all the time).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Don't suppose you've tried that particular model, after getting it to be thorough?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890115"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;galangalalgol 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Delivering a library with an llm to explain the api and idiomatic usage seems like an interesting use case.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890051"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bdangubic 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I’d rather be homeless in Philadelphia than work where you work&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890228"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;cwalv 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This kind of "perf review" hacking works ~everywhere; how well it works correlates with how entrenched the organization is (i.e., how hard it is for new players to disrupt).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You don't have to play the game the same way to work there. But it helps to accept that others will play it, and manage your own expectations accordingly.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890378"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palata 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; This kind of "perf review" hacking works ~everywhere&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't have tons of examples, but in my experience:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* This worked in toxic environments. They deserve it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* This doesn't work in a functional environment, because they don't have those bullshit metrics.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you have to rely on those tricks, it's time to look for another job.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892422"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;seattle_spring 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Which big, well-paying companies do not have "those bullshit metrics"? I know for a fact that Meta, Google, Stripe, Airbnb, and Oracle all lean heavily on performance review cycles based entirely on ridiculous metrics. Getting ahead there requires you to play the stupid games GP is suggesting.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898101"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;astrange 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;The original post doesn't mention anything quantitative ("metrics"). Did this get sidetracked?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Depends on what you are looking for. I’ve turned half baked ideas into white papers for plenty of praise. I’ve used them to make my Jira tickets seem complicated and complete. I’ve used them to get praised for writing comprehensive documentation.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is about giving people a good impression of you so they'll write strong peer feedback.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895436"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chipsrafferty 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;And those are all examples of companies nobody should work for&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43894338"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bdangubic 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;If you work there, as OP said, it's time to look for another job.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898243"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;seattle_spring 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Totally, if you're willing to trade in your half-million or more annual compensation for $150k or less. My point is that it's an unfortunate game you have to play if you're working for places like that.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43901114"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;Totally, if you're willing to trade in your half-million or more annual compensation for $150k or less.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I will take 60k at this point. I've been living ono half of that for almost 2 years now.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I have no idea how anyone is navigating this job market. Maybe it's just 10x worse and most people here are in the Bay area that's a tiny bit more shielded from this.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;Their number is absolutely miniscule compared to the number of big-tech jobs.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;give it another year of layoffs. We'll get there.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898776"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bdangubic 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;the coolest thing "the big tech" was able to do is convince a whole bunch ridiculously smart people that they only place they can make $500k is with them. I personally (I am just one person) know more than 10 people not working for big tech making (some significantly) north of $500k as SWEs and doing awesome sh*t (unlike I would un-intelligently guess most of big tech employees)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898878"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;seattle_spring 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Sure, there are some jobs that match your description, likely for people that can brand themselves "AI engineers" for a rocketship company like OpenAI. Their number is absolutely miniscule compared to the number of big-tech jobs.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43900482"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palata 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Yeah, I think another problem is that TooBigTech is able to pay insanely for... what do they bring to society again? Was it social media and ads? Anyway, all that desirable stuff /s.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890377"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bdangubic 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;But it helps to accept that others will play it&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Feel for you or anyone surrounded by such others but it is most definitely not everywhere - that is used to justify your presence in a place of work you should not be&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889817"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;generativenoise 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Would be nice to fix the performance reviews so we don't end up in a arms race of creating bloat until it becomes so unproductive it kills the host.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Over-fitting proxy measures is one of the scourges of modernity.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The only silver lining is if it becomes so wide spread and easy it loses the value of seeming sophisticated and thorough.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889863"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;FridgeSeal 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; creating bloat until it becomes so unproductive it kills the host&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Maybe we should let/encourage this to happen. Maybe letting bloated zombie-like organisations bloat themselves to death would thin the herd somewhat, to make space for organisations that are less “broken”.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890194"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;justinclift 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;"But at what price?" is probably the right question here, and that'd be a case by case basis thing. ;)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893634"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;elzbardico 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I am on the mind that every organization should eventually die before it becomes a monster. I am also not a huge fan of inheritance for the same reason.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893304"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;GreenWatermelon 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;All FAANG/MAGMA dying is a bonus. The cherry on top. Net positive for humanity. A best case scenario.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889864"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;necovek 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I fully believe you and I am saddened by the reality of your situation.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;At the same time, I strive really hard to influence the environment I am in so it does not value content bloat as a unit of productivity, so hopefully there are at least some places where people can have their sanity back!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890372"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palata 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;If your organisation is such that you have to do this even though you are competent for your job, then they deserve it. They lose money because they do it wrong.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If your organisation is functional and you are abusing it by doing that, then you deserve to get fired.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890093"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Wowfunhappy 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;...thinking about it, there are probably situations where making something more verbose makes it take less effort to read. I can see how an LLM might be useful in that situation.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891772"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;EigenLord 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I think the answer to the professor's dismay is quite simple. Many people are in university to survive a brutal social darwinist economic system, not to learn and cultivate their minds. Only a very small handful of them were ever there to study Euler angles earnestly. The rest view it as a hoop they have to jump through to hopefully get a job that might as well be automated away by AI anyway. Also viewed from a conditional reinforcement perspective, all the professor has to do is start docking grade points from students who are obviously cheating. Theory predicts they will either stop doing it, or get so good at it that it becomes undetectable-possibly an in-demand skill for the future.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897063"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;doctorpangloss 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Whose system though?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I agree, it's weird for parents to say, "Jump through these hoops, and for every dollar you earn grinding sesame for some company, we'll give you an additional two."&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Working and educating yourself is decent and dignified, no? Is this a bad deal?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898378"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tenacious_tuna 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Working and educating yourself is decent and dignified, no?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think that depends radically on the nature of the work. I hold a BS in Computer Science but am at an organization that requires me to use LLMs as part of my performance evaluation; I could protest, but it puts my immigration status at risk (my employer has sponsored me into my current country). I view the things asked of me (using LLMs) as degrading, but I'm unable to effectively protest that despite being well-regarded as an engineer (by peers and past employers) and credentialed (BS in CS).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Put differently, most people do A Job because they need to put food on the table. One of my partners used to work in the veterinary field, which took an immense physical toll on them. They're much happier being (f)unemployed currently, being able to work in the garden and make good food and produce art, but our finances are suffering for it; they're hunting for jobs, but most of the current openings are pretty bad in terms of work/life balance and future opportunity.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Working is not inherently necessary; in our current economic system it's exploitatively-required in order to live any sort of decent and dignified life, and there's loads of stories about people who work but aren't treated with dignity (thru healthcare or housing or food strife).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43901381"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;Whose system though?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;clearly the billionaires who made it so a decent job isn't even guaranteed to cover rent.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892287"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Balgair 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Nit pick: He's not a professor, just a grad student at the same place he got his undergrad, and he's mostly gone to university during covid. At least per his page here: https://claytonwramsey.com/about/&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Its not like professors get real training either, but the guy doesn't seem to have gotten any real pedagogy.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I guess that I'm driving at that this guy is awfully young and the essay was a hot take. We should judge it accordingly.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889773"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;laurentlb 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;There are many ways to use LLMs.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The issue, IMO, is that some people throw in a one-shot, short prompt, and get a generic, boring output. "Garbage in, generic out."&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Here's how I actually use LLMs:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- To dump my thoughts and get help organizing them.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- To get feedback on phrasing and transitions (I'm not a native speaker).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- To improve tone, style (while trying to keep it personal!), or just to simplify messy sentences.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- To identify issues, missing information, etc. in my text.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It’s usually an iterative process, and the combined prompt length ends up longer than the final result. And I incorporate the feedback manually.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So sure, if someone types "write a blog post about X" and hits go, the prompt is more interesting than the output. But when there are five rounds of edits and context, would you really rather read all the prompts and drafts instead of the final version?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(if you do: https://chatgpt.com/share/6817dd19-4604-800b-95ee-f2dd05add4...)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890134"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;egglemonsoup 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;FWIW: Your original comment, in the first message you sent ChatGPT, was way better than the one you posted. Simple, authentic, to the point&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890516"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;gnatolf 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I couldn't agree more, this 'polished' style the finished comment comes in is super boring to read. It's hard to put the finger on it, but overall flow is just too... Samesame? I guess it's perfectly _expected_ to be predictable to read ;)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895202"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;AppleBananaPie 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;And then one of the iterations was asking additional ways llms could be used and then adding some of those as content which seems odd but plausibly helpful brainstorming. Just the phrasing of the original question makes it sound like things the user isn't actually doing but wants in their comment if that makes sense.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Thanks for the example chat it was a valuable learning for me!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43894487"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dogleash 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;- To improve tone, style (while trying to keep it personal!), or just to simplify messy sentences.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Ironically enough, as I was reading your post this is what convinced me it was written by ChatGPT.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;FWIW, the initial draft you gave to chatgpt is better than what you posted.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898682"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;rafram 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;That's a lot of back-and-forth to produce something that's functionally equivalent to your original text, only slightly worse.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889899"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palata 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; would you really rather read all the prompts and drafts instead of the final version?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think you missed the point of the article. They did not mean it literally: it's a way to say that they are interested in what you have to say.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And that is the point that is extremely difficult to make students understand. When a teacher asks a student to write about a historical event, it's not just some kind of ceremony on the way to a degree. The end goal is to make the student improve in a number of skills: gathering information, making sense of it, absorbing it, being critical about what they read, eventually building an opinion about it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;When you say "I use an LLM to dump my thoughts and get help organising them", what you say is that you are not interested in improving your ability to actually absorb information. To me, it says that you are not interested in becoming interesting. I would think that it is a maturity issue: some day you will understand.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And that's what the article says: I am interested in hearing what you have to say about a topic that you care about. I am not interested into anything you can do to pretend that you care or know about it. If you can't organise your thoughts yourself, I don't believe that you have reached a point where you are interesting. Not that you will never get there; it just takes practice. But if you don't practice (and use LLMs instead), my concern is that you will never become interesting. This time is wasted, I don't want to read what your LLM generated from that stuff you didn't care to absorb in the first place.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43894445"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;senordevnyc 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;* I think you missed the point of the article. They did not mean it literally: it's a way to say that they are interested in what you have to say.*&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Maybe an LLM could have helped the writer say what they meant to.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43894495"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palata 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Maybe if people were more used to reading and less to copy-pasting into LLMs, they would understand the article.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43905513"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;senordevnyc 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;If your readers don’t understand what you’re writing, it’s your fault as the author. There’s so much good stuff to read, why waste time on someone who can’t organize or articulate their thoughts?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889941"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;imhoguy 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Exactly it is a tool which needs skill to use. I would add extra use of mine:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- To "Translate to language XYZ", and that is not sometimes strightforward and needs iterating like "Translate to language &amp;lt;LANGUAGE&amp;gt; used by &amp;lt;PERSON ROLE&amp;gt; living in &amp;lt;CITY&amp;gt;" and so on.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And the author is right, I use it as 2nd-language user, thus LLM produces better text than myself. However I am not going to share the prompt as it is useless (foreign language) and too messy (bits of draft text) to the reader. I would compare it to passing a book draft thru editor and translator.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890605"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palata 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;For what it's worth, I think that sending a message translated to a foreign language you don't master is the worst thing you can do.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You speak English? Write and send your message in English. The receiver can copy-paste it in a translator. This way, they will know that they are not reading the original. So if your translated message sounds inaccurate, offensive or anything like that, they can go back to your original message.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890993"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;kouru225 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Ever since AI came out I’ve been talking about the prompt to output ratio. We naturally assume that the prompt will be smaller than the output just because of the particulars of the systems we use, but as you get more and more particular of what you want, the prompt grows while the output stays the same size. This is logical. If instead of writing an essay, I just describe what I want the essay to say, the description is necessarily gonna be a larger amount of text than the essay itself. It’s more text to describe what’s said, than to just say it. The fact that we expect to do less effort and get back more effort indicates exactly what we’re getting here: a bunch of filler.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In that way, the prompt is more interesting, and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve gone to go write a prompt because I dunno how to write what I wanna say, and then suddenly writing the prompt makes that shit clear to me.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In general, I’d say that AI is way more useful to compress complex ideas into simple ones than to expand simplistic ideas in to complex ones.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891036"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;roxolotl 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;This is why it’s unlikely these systems will effectively replace software development. By the time you’ve specified the novel system you want to build well enough in English such that you get exactly the system you want you might as well have written the code.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891373"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;kouru225 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Yep. To put it another way: In a scenario where you want to say something, you can’t outsource what you want to say to anyone. It doesn’t matter whether or not you want to say it in code or if you want to say it in English.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897402"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chipsrafferty 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is simply not true.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I can describe a novel physics model for a video game. I can do a refresher on concepts like friction, air resistance, gravity, etc. that I don't remember well from school. Then I can describe the constraints and generate code to satisfy it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If I were to go and learn the physics really in depth and then code it myself, it would take 10x longer.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898677"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mjburgess 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The comparison is to use a physics library. Only in the LLM case are you trying to write the physics engine yourself. And if its not the kind of physics that's in a library, yes, you will need to learn it to ship a game.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891389"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jama211 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well... you’re forgetting the part where you can cut out the middleman. Currently a leader has to ask an engineer to build a system, and has to communicate effectively with the engineer until all of the novel details have been ironed out in the specification, and _y_ the engineer builds it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In a world where the LLM can do the building, the engineer is no longer required.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892825"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;gherkinnn 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;More often than not, the building is the easy part once the specifics are ironed out.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In my experience, an ideas leader (you know the type) will fail at telling a machine exactly what to do and get bored with the inevitable edge cases, computers saying no, and non-ideas drudgery. This is where I believe every no-code and low-code and WYSIWYG platform and now LLMs fall apart.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;A major aspect of programming is translating the messy meatspace to something an extremely fast moron (a computer and I wish I coined this term) understands. And as much of a step change LLMs for writing code are, I have yet to see them take this step.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891452"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;empthought 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;You just turned your leader into an engineer, is all.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893043"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;immibis 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;They've tried this before and they made COBOL. Turns out you still need programmers to write COBOL because it's still programming even if the program looks Englishy.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893107"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;xandrius 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't think prompt / output ratio, is the speed to get the output that matters.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If I spend 1 hour and write 500 words of prompt to then attach X additional rows of data (e.g. Rows from a table) and the LLM returns X rows of perfect answers. It shouldn't matter that the output ratio is worse than if I had typed those characters myself.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The important thing is whether within that 1 hour (+ few minutes of LLM processing) I managed to get the job done quicker or not.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's similar to programming, using LLMs is not necessarily to write better code than I personally could but to write good enough code much faster than I ever would.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43896846"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bost-ty 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; In that way, the prompt is more interesting, and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve gone to go write a prompt because I dunno how to write what I wanna say, and then suddenly writing the prompt makes that shit clear to me.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Bingo. It can be a rubber duck that echoes your mistakes back. Unfortunately, as other commenters have pointed out, the prompt may not be as interesting/iterative as we might suppose: "Here's the assignment, what's the answer".&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889028"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Ancalagon 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I fully support the author’s point but it’s hard to argue with the economics and hurdles around obtaining degrees. Most people do view obtaining a degree as just a hurdle to getting a decent job, that’s just the economics of it. And unfortunately the employers these days are encouraging this kind of copy/paste work. Look at how Meta and Google claim the majority of the new code written there is AI created?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The world will be consumed by AI.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889107"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bruce511 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;You get what you measure, and you should expect people to game your metric.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Once upon a time only the brightest (and / or richest) went to college. So a college degree becomes a proxy for clever.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Now since college graduates get the good jobs, the way to give everyone a good job is to give everyone a degree.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And since most people are only interested in the job, not the learning that underpins the degree, well, you get a bunch of students that care only for the pass mark and the certificate at the end.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;When people are only there to play the game, then you can't expect them to learn.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;However, while 90% will miss the opportunity right there in front of them, 10% will grab it and suck the marrow. If you are in college I recommend you take advantage of the chance to interact with the knowledge on offer. College may be offered to all, but only a lucky few see the gold on offer, and really learn.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's the thing about the game. It's not just about the final score. There's so much more on offer.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890392"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;cwalv 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; However, while 90% will miss the opportunity right there in front of them, 10% will grab it and suck the marrow.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Learning is not just a function of aptitude and/or effort. Interest is a huge factor as well, and even for a single person, what they find interesting changes over time.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't think it's really possible to have a large cohort of people pass thru a liberal arts education, with everyone learning the same stuff at the same time, and have a majority of them "suck the marrow" out of the opportunity.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891700"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bruce511 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I did a comp science degree, so I can't speak for the liberal arts. However I imagine the same experience could apply.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For us the curriculum was the start of the learning, not the end. We'd get a weekly assignment that could be done in an afternoon. Most of the class did the assignments, and that was enough.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There was a small group of us that lived (pretty much) in the lab. We'd take the assignment and run with it, for days, nights, spare periods, whatever. That 10 line assignment? We turned it into 1000 lines every week.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For example the class on sorting might specify a specific algorithm. We'd do all of them. Compete against each other to make the fastest one. Compare one dataset to another. Investigate data distributions. You know, suck the marrow.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(Our professors would also swing by the lab from time to time to see how things were going, drop the odd hint, or prod the bear in a direction and so on. And this is all still undergrad.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I can imagine a History major doing the same. Researching beyond the curriculum. Going down rabbit holes.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;My point is though is that you're right. You need to be interested. You need to have this compulsion. You can't tell a person "go, learn". All you can do is offer the environment, sit back, and see who grabs the opportunity.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I get that you cant imagine this playing out. To those interested only in the degree, it's unimaginable. And no, as long as burning-desire is not on the entry requirements, it most certainly will not be the majority.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In truth the lab resources eoild never have coped if the majority did what we did.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892197"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;cwalv 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; I did a comp science degree, so I can't speak for the liberal arts.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;By 'liberal arts' I meant the common 4 year, non-vocational education. My major was CS too, but well over half of the time was spent on other subjects.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; I get that you cant imagine this playing out. To those interested only in the degree, it's unimaginable&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I can easily imagine what you describe playing out. I just wouldn't call it 'sucking the marrow' (unless you were equally avid in all your classes, which time likely would not permit).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But as you allude to in your last point, the system isn't really designed for that. It's nice when it does effectively support the few who have developed the interest, and have extra time to devote to it, as it did for you.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'd rather see systems that were designed for it though.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889719"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;squigz 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; you get a bunch of students that care only for the pass mark and the certificate at the end.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is because that is what companies care about. It's not a proxy for cleverness or intelligence - it's a box to check.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891753"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bruce511 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's entirely the point. If you see the degree only as a stepping stone to the company job, then that's all you see and that's all you get.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you accept that the degree/job relationship is the start, not end, of the reason for being there, then you see other things too.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There are opportunities around the student which are for them, not for their degree, not for their job. There are things you can learn, and never be graded. There are toys to play with you'll never see again. There are whole departments of living experts happy to answer questions.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For example, (this is pre google) I wrote a program and so needed to understand international copyright. I could have gone to the library and read about it. Instead I went to the law faculty, knocked on the door, and found their professor who specialized in intellectual property.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Since the program I wrote was in the medical space, I went to the medical campus, to the medical research library, and found tomes that listed researchers who might benefit. I basically learned about marketing.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If all you care about is the company job, then all you'll see is the degree.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890438"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Nathanba 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;right and getting a family is also just a box to check and eating food is a box to check and brushing my teeth is just a box to check and on it goes for every single thing in life. If we all just checked boxes then we'd not be human anymore.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889190"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mrweasel 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Most people do view obtaining a degree as just a hurdle to getting a decent job&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Then fail to actually learn anything and apply for jobs and try to cheat the interviewers using the same AI that helped them graduate. I fear that LLMs have already fostered the first batch of developers who cannot function without it. I don't even mind that you use an LLM for parts of your job, but you need to be able to function without it. Not all data is allowed to go into an AI prompt, some problems aren't solvable with the LLMs and you're not building your own skills if you rely on generated code/configuration for the simpler issues.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889461"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bee_rider 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think, rather than saying they can’t do their job without an LLM, we should just say some can’t do their jobs.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That is, the job of a professional programmer includes having produced code that they understand the behavior of. Otherwise you’ve failed to do your due diligence.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If people are using LLMs to generate code, and then actually doing the work of understanding how that code works... that’s fine! Who cares!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If people are just vibe coding and pushing the results to customers without understanding it—they are wildly unethical and irresponsible. (People have been doing this for decades, they didn’t have the AI to optimize the situation, but they managed to do it by copy-pasting from stack overflow).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889518"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;closewith 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; That is, the job of a professional programmer includes having produced code that they understand the behavior of.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I have met maybe two people who truly understood the behaviour of their code and both employed formal methods. Everyone else, including myself, are at varying levels of confusion.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889730"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;throwaway173738 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;If you want to put the goalposts there, why program instead of building transistor networks?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889363"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mezyt 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; I fear that LLMs have already fostered the first batch of developers who cannot function without it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Playing the contrarian here, but I'm from a batch of developers that can't function without a compiler, and I'm at 10% of what I can do without an IDE and static analysis.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889479"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;necovek 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's really curious: I've never felt that much empowered by an IDE or static analysis.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Sure, there's a huge jump from a line editor like `ed` to a screen editor like `vi` or `emacs`, but from there on, it was diminishing returns really (a good debugger was usually the biggest benefit next) — I've also had the "pleasure" of having to use `echo`, `cat` and `sed` to edit complex code in a restricted, embedded environment, and while it made iterations slower, not that much more slower than if I had a full IDE at my disposal.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In general, if I am in a good mood (and thus not annoyed at having to do so many things "manually"), I am probably only 20% slower than with my fully configured IDE at coding things up, which translates to less than 5% of slow down on actually delivering the thing I am working on.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890729"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;skydhash 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think there’s a factor of speed there, not a factor of insight or knowledge. If all you have is ‘ed’ and a printer, then I think most of the time you will spend is with the printout. ‘vi’ eliminates the printout and the tediousness of going back and forth.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Same with more advanced editors and IDEs. They help with tediousness, which can hinders insight, but does not help it if you do not have the foundation.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889625"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;candiddevmike 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Apples and oranges (or stochastic vs deterministic)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889651"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;philipwhiuk 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Look inside a compiler, you'll find some AI.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892719"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;procaryote 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;You won't find an LLM.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;What would you consider AI in it?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889615"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;aledalgrande 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I've seen this comparison a few times already, but IMHO it's totally wrong.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;A compiler translates _what you have already implemented_ into another computer runnable language. There is an actual grammar that defines the rules. It does not generate new business logic or assumptions. You have already done the work and taken all the decisions that needed critical thought, it's just being translated _instruction by instruction_. (btw you should check how compilers work, it's fun)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Using an LLM is more akin to copying from Stackoverflow than using a compiler/transpiler.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In the same way, I see org charts that put developers above AI managers, which are above AI developers. This is just smoke. You can't have LLMs generating thousands of lines of code independently. Unless you want a dumpster fire very quickly...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892565"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mezyt 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Yeah ok. I was viewing AI as "a tool to help you code better", not as "you literally can't do anything without it generating everything for you". I could do some assembly if I really had to, but it would not be efficient at all. I wonder if there's actually "developers" who are only prompting an LLM and not understanding anything in the output ? Must be generating dumpster fires as you said.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43901637"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;aledalgrande 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Guess you haven't seen this https://www.reddit.com/r/csMajors/comments/1jg39g2/looks_lik...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889613"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;otabdeveloper4 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Lots and lots of developers can't program at all. As in literally - can't write a simple function like "fizzbuzz" even if you let them use reference documentation. Many don't even know what a "function" even is.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(Yes, these are people with developer jobs, often at "serious" companies.)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889818"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;staunton 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I've never met someone like that and don't believe the claim.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Maybe you mean people who are bad at interviews? Or people whose job isn't actually programming? Or maybe "lots" means "at least one"? Or maybe they can strictly speaking do fizzbuzz, but are "in any case bad programmers"? If your claim is true, what do these people do all day (or, let's say, did before LLMs were a thing...)?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892089"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;otabdeveloper4 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;By "lots" I estimate about 40 percent of the software developer workforce. (Not a scientific estimate.)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Maybe you mean people who are bad at interviews?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;No, the opposite. These developers learn the relevant buzzwords and can string them together convincingly, but fail to actually understand what they're regurgitating. (Very similar to an LLM, actually.)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;E.g., these people will throw words like "Dunder method" around with great confidence, but then will completely melt down for fifteen minutes if a function argument has the same name as a module.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;When on the job these people just copy-paste existing code from the "serious company" monorepo all day, every day. They call it "teamwork".&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890181"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sarchertech 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yeah I’ve been doing this for a while now and I’ve never met an employed developer who didn’t know what a function is or couldn’t write a basic program.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I’ve met some really terrible programmers, and some programmers who freeze during interviews.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891255"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bigstrat2003 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I've definitely worked with a person who struggled to write if statements (let alone anything more complex). This was just one guy, so I wouldn't say "lots and lots" like the other poster did, but they do exist.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892772"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;procaryote 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is half the point of interviewing. I've been at places that just skip interviewing is the person comes highly recommended, has a great CV, or whatever.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Predictably they end up with some people on the range from "can't code at all" to "newbie coder without talent"&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892707"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;procaryote 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;LLMs have been popular for like 2 years... if you can't code without one, you couldn't code 2 years ago. Given 2 years you might be able to learn to.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889327"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;echelon 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; I fully support the author’s point&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't. I think the world is falling into two camps with these tools and models.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; I now circle back to my main point: I have never seen any form of create generative model output (be that image, text, audio, or video) which I would rather see than the original prompt. The resulting output has less substance than the prompt and lacks any human vision in its creation. The whole point of making creative work is to share one’s own experience&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Strong disagree with Clayton's conclusion.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We just made this with AI, and I'm pretty sure you don't want to see the raw inputs unless you're a creator:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4NFXGMuwpY&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think the world will be segregated into two types of AI user:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- Those that use the AI as a complete end-to-end tool&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- Those that leverage the AI as tool for their own creativity and workflows, that use it to enhance the work they already do&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The latter is absolutely a great use case for AI.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889546"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;necovek 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; We just made this with AI, and I'm pretty sure you don't want to see the raw inputs unless you're a creator:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I am not a creator but I am interested in generative AI capabilities and their limits, and I even suffered through the entire video which tries to be funny, but really isn't (and it'd be easier to skim through as a script than the full video).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So even in this case, I would be more interested in the prompt than in this video.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889388"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ineedasername 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes, depending on the model being used, endless text of this flavor isn't all that compelling to read:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;"Tall man, armor that is robotic and mechanical in appearance, NFL logo on chest, blue legs".,&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And so on, embedded in node wiring diagrams to fiddly configs and specialized models for bespoke purposes, "camera" movements, etc.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889560"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;necovek 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;TBH, this video is not that compelling either, though — obviously — I am aware that others might have a different opinion.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Seeing this non-compelling prompt would tell me right off the bat that I wouldn't be interested in the video either.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890616"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palata 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; The latter is absolutely a great use case for AI.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The video is not exactly great, IMO.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889929"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palata 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Most people do view obtaining a degree as just a hurdle to getting a decent job, that’s just the economics of it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Because those who recruit based on the degree aren't worth more than those who get a degree by using LLMs.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Maybe it will force a big change in the way students are graded. Maybe, after they have handed in their essay, the teacher should just have a discussion about it, to see how much they actually absorbed from the topic.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Or not, and LLMs will just make everything worse. That's more likely IMO.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889280"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Animats 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's because the instructor is asking questions that merely require the student to regurgitate the instructor's text.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;To actually teach this, you do something like this:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;"Here's a little dummy robot arm made out of Tinkertoys. There are three angular joints, a rotating base, a shoulder, and an elbow. Each one has a protractor so you can see the angle.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;1. Figure out where the end of the arm will be based on those three angles. Those are Euler angles in action. This isn't too hard.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;2. Figure out what the angles should be to touch a specific point on the table. For this robot geometry, there's a simple solution, for which look up "two link kinematics". You don't have to derive it, just be able to work out how to get the arm where you want it. Is the solution unambiguous? (Hint: there may be more than one solution, but not a large number.)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;3. Extra credit. Add another link to the robot, a wrist. Now figure out what the angles should be to touch a specific point on the table. Three joints are a lot harder than two joints. There are infinitely many solutions. Look up "N-link kinematics". Come up with a simple solution that works, but don't try too hard to make it optimal. That's for the optimal controls course.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This will give some real understanding of the problems of doing this.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889380"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jfengel 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;A LLM can't do that? I'm a little surprised.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(I know jack all about robotics but that sounds like a pretty common assignment, the kind an LLM would regurgitate someone else's homework.)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890047"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nikanj 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;The LLM is very happy to give you an answer with high confidence.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The answer might be bogus, but the AI will sound confident all the way through.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;No wonder sales and upper management love AI&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893418"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;thegeomaster 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The LLM provides a correct answer to the questions above: https://chatgpt.com/share/68188ed9-e25c-8002-b4f8-460a5d1efe...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890719"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;casey2 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Most physics teachers who do this are happy with the BS answer, maybe 1 in a 10,000 have actually tested their problems in reality.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893420"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;thegeomaster 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Tested: https://chatgpt.com/share/68188ed9-e25c-8002-b4f8-460a5d1efe...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891395"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jama211 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Very well said. It’s a bad assignment! Is 1 student does something like this maybe they’re wrong, but if 90% of students are doing this, then IMO the assignment is wrong.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893754"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;JCharante 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Or maybe 90% of students are destined for mediocrity.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;One of the most fun classes I took in undergrad had people complaining about the professor’s teaching capabilities because it was too hard. We shouldn’t cater to the poor performers.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43888963"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;andy99 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I used to teach, years before LLMs, and got lots of copy-pasted crap submitted. I always marked it zero, never mentioning plagiarism (which would require some university administration) and just commenting that I asked for X and instead got some pasted together nonsense.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As long as LLM output is what it is, there is little threat of it actually being competitive on assignments. If students are attentive enough to paraphrase it into their own voice I'd call it a win; if they just submit the crap that some data labeling outsourcer has RLHF'd into a LLM, I'd just mark it zero.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890301"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;gyomu 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yeah, the author here is as much a part of the problem. If you let students get away with submitting ChatGPT nonsense, of course they’re going to do that - they don’t care about the 3000 words appeal to emotion on your blog, they take the path of least resistance.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you’re not willing to cross out an entire assignment and return it to the student who handed it in with “ChatGPT nonsense, 0” written in big red letters at the top of it, you should ask yourself what is the point of your assignments in the first place.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But I get it, university has become a pay-to-win-a-degree scheme for students, and professors have become powerless to enforce any standards or discipline in the face of administrators.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So all they can do is give the ChatGPT BS the minimum passing grade and then philosophize about it on their blog (which the students will never read).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890463"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;IshKebab 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Yeah this is what I did the one time I invigilated/marked a Matlab exam. Very obvious cheating (e.g. getting the right answer with incorrect code). But no way was I going through the admin of accusing them of cheating. They just got a 0.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889428"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sebzim4500 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Are you just assuming that a student who you think used an LLM would be unwilling to escalate?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I would have thought that giving 0s to correct solutions would lead to successful complaints/appeals.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889453"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jazzyjackson 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;If it’s copy pasted it’s obvious, and the assignment isn’t to turn in a correct solution, but to turn in evidence that you are able to determine a correct solution. Automated answers deserve 0 credit.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43889083"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;selfselfgo 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;When I was kid in school I would write original essays, and I mean truly original creative ideas. But of course any new idea has a chance of failure, so these essays were mostly bad and got bad grades. At a loss for what to do I quickly stopped reading the books I was assigned basing my essays on Wikipedia summaries and other people’s reviews. I saw my first few As and even A+s and I realized if I write something original of even just average intelligence roughly 50% of people will be too dumb to understand it. For an idea to truly be considered intelligent in literature it has to be appealing to people have no actual memory of the things they’ve read. Even for a knowledgeable intelligent person they have a sea of similar information clouding their view.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897560"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chipsrafferty 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Or you're just a bad writer. I certainly could not understand your main point, particularly the sentence "For an idea to truly be considered intelligent in literature it has to be appealing to people have no actual memory of the things they’ve read." which is ungrammatical.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890242"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sn9 7 months ago | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; I should hope that the purpose of a class writing exercise is not to create an artifact of text but force the student to think; a language model produces the former, not the latter.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's been incredibly blackpilling seeing how many intelligent professionals and academics don't understand this, especially in education and academia.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;They see work as the mere production of output, without ever thinking about how that work builds knowledge and skills and experience.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Students who know least of all and don't understand the purpose of writing or problem solving or the limitations of LLMs are currently wasting years of their lives letting LLMs pull them along as they cheat themselves out of an education, sometimes spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to let their brains atrophy only to get a piece of paper and face the real world where problems get massively more open-ended and LLMs massively decline in meeting the required quality of problem solving.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Anyone who actually struggles to solve problems and learn themselves is going to have massive advantages in the long term.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890888"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jameshart 7 months ago | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I’ve come across this analogy that I think works well:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Using an LLM to do schoolwork is like taking a forklift to the gym.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If all we were interested in was moving the weights around, you’d be right to use a tool to help you. But we’re doing this work for the effect it will have on you. The reason a teacher asks you a question is not because they don’t know the answer.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891174"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ChadNauseam 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;If students went to college only to learn, colleges wouldn't bother giving diplomas.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Compare: My piano teacher doesn't give diplomas because none of her students would care, her students actually want to learn. When my piano teacher cancels class, I am disappointed because I wanted to learn. My piano teacher doesn't need to threaten me with bad grades to get me to practice outside of class (analogous to homework), because I actually want to learn.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There are many college students for whom none of these tests would pass. They would not attend if there was no diploma, they're relieved when their professors cancel class, and they need to be bullied into studying outside of class.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;What made us think these students were ever interested in learning in the first place? Instead, it seems more likely that they just want a degree because they believe that a degree will give them an advantage in the job market. Many people will never use the information that they supposedly learn in college, and they're aware of this when they enroll.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Personally, the fact that they can now get a degree with even less wasted effort than before doesn't bother me one bit. People who want to learn still have every opportunity to.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891418"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;rohansood15 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Students want the diploma because it has value. It has value because a student can only get it by learning and problem-solving.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If students find a way to get a diploma without doing the work, it will soon be worth less than the paper on which it is printed.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891631"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;animal_spirits 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Further, if a student can get a diploma without work, then the diploma does not have value anymore. If diplomas are no longer valuable, the signal they provide in the labor market will turn into noise.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If employers no longer look for the diploma-signal in an employee, what will be the reason an employer will hire an employee?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think this story will become true, and society will radically shift into one where critical thinking skills will actually be the only skills employers look for in employees, since the grunt work can be automated.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;What becomes the signal then? Will we shift back into apprenticeship based employment? How do potential laborers display their critical thinking skills apart from displaying them in person?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891733"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nine_k 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;In a medieval guild, to be admitted as a master, an apprentice had to create a chef d'oevre, or masterpiece, so called for this reason.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In the computer engineering industry, you increasingly have to demonstrate the same: either as a part of your prior work for hire, or a side project, or a contribution to something open-source.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;A diploma is still a useful signal, but not sufficient, except maybe for very junior positions straight from college. These are exactly the positions most under pressure by the automation.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895630"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ajmurmann 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think software developers might be somewhat of an outlier. Industry wants good programmers but universities teach computer science which really should be called "computation science". Much of what we learn in university will hardly ever be used while many practical skills are at best learned as a side effect. Dijkstra favorite said that computer science is as much about computers as astronomy is about telescopes.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So degrees have been a weak signal for a long time. Several of the best developers I've worked with had no CS degree at all. As a result we have interview processes that are baffling to people from other industries. Imagine a surgeon having to do interview surgery, or an accountant having to solve accounting puzzles. AFAIK we are very unusual in this regard and I think it's because degrees are such a weak indicator and the same is true for certificates in our industry.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897055"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Retric 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; while many practical skills are at best learned as a side effect.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I strongly disagree, that’s the intent not a side effect.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It’s IMO a common misconception that early algorithm classes are just designed around learning algorithms. Instead basic algorithms are the simplest thing to turn abstract requirements into complex code. The overwhelming majority of what students learn are the actual tools of programming, debugging, etc while using the training wheels of a problem already broken up into bite sized steps.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Ramping up the complexity is then more about learning tradeoffs and refining those skills than writing an ever more efficient sorting algorithm or whatnot.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897371"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jacobr1 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;That is true, in the sense that the 100/200 level classes are covering programming basics in addition to whatever algorithmic theory is being presented. But beyond that that, programs really seem to differ pretty strongly on applied projects and software engineering practices (basic stuff like source control) and more theoretical/mathematical concepts. One type of capstone style class commonly seen is compiler design. To a certain extent, a good school will teach you how to learn, and give you enough of a background, class projects, internships, electives with applied options, that you get a well rounded education and can quickly ramp up in a more typical software organization after graduation. But as someone who has hired many new grads over the years, it always surprises me what sort of gaps exist. It rarely is about programming basics, and almost always about "software engineering" as a discipline.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898002"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Retric 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;That’s fair.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;My experience is graduates of schools focused on the more practical aspects tend to make better Jr developers on day one but then stagnate. Meanwhile graduates of the more theoretical programs people pick up those same practical skills on the job leaving them better prepared for more demanding assignments.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This then feeds into the common preference for CS degrees even if they may not actually be the best fit for the specific role.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897892"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ajmurmann 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Interesting. I did my undergraduate in Germany and my graduate in the US, so my experience might be unusual here and different from what you get in the US. My undergraduate algorithms classes in Germany and my advanced algorithms classes in the US involved zero actual coding. It was all pseudocode as you'd find in the Knuth books or in Cormen, Leiserson and Rivest.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892990"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Mbwagava 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Apprentices were supported, tho. We just chuck kids out in the cold with college debt and hope they survive with little reason to think they will.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898207"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zharknado 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;And they were supported because they were useful labor. Even an unskilled, brand-new apprentice could pump the bellows, sweep the forge, haul wood and water, deliver messages. If it frees up the master to produce more valuable output, that’s a win-win. Then they can grow into increasingly valuable tasks as they gain awareness and skill.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;IMO one of the big problems is that we’ve gone too far with the assumption that learners can’t be valuable until after they’re done learning. Partly a cultural shift around the role of children and partly the reality that knowledge work doesn’t require much unskilled labor compared to physical industries.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895985"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;vishnugupta 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I was somewhat aware that in medieval period most started out as an apprentice in mid teens. Essentially work slaves in the house of a master. Then after a decade or so of toiling and gaining the skill they would go on to become individual business owners.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But I wasn’t aware about the master peace. Thank you for sharing that!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897878"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well you see the obvious difference. They actually trained people for the job. Even if it was under the guise of child labor.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We simply stopped doing that. A decade of apprenticeship reduced down to 3 months of shadowing during summer.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43902479"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;vishnugupta 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;By the time one is early/mid 20s they would be nearing master level in skill. Would have faced the real world for 7-8 years, know how the world works in terms of money, dealing with customers, and so on.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Compare that with today, by early 20s one is only getting out of college undergrad. About to start the real world job training.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So much of wasted time.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43902679"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yeah, they are different domains. I don't mind options for those who want to pursue an acedemic approach compared to a practical one. But for most fields we just don't have that choice anymore. Getting hand on experience? Gotta be recruited from acedemia first.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;More reason to vye for labor protections. If they realize they can't just rotate out people every 6-20 months they may actually go back to fostering talent instead of treating acedemia like a cattle farm.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892852"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;concordDance 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Honestly, a future where diplomas are just noise and employers stop caring about them and thus young people stop wasting years of their lives "learning" something they don't care about sounds like a huge improvement.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;LLM cheaters might incidentally be doing society a service.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893358"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dsego 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;They will only learn what's needed to "get the job done" for whatever it means at that moment, and we could potentially see more erosion in technical abilities and work quality. You don't know what you don't know, and without learning things that you don't care about, you loose the chance to expand your knowledge outside of your comfort zone.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43894531"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;DrillShopper 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; They will only learn what's needed to "get the job done" for whatever it means at that moment&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I graduated university around the turn of the century, long before the current AI boom started, and the majority of my classmates were like that. Learning the bare minimum to escape a class isn't new especially if you're only taking that class because you have to because every adult in your life drilled into you that you'll be a homeless failure if you don't go to college and get a degree. The LLMs make that easier, but the university, if the goal wasn't just to take your tuition dollars to enrich a vast administrator class instead of cover the costs of employing the professors teaching you, could offset that with more rigorous testing or oral exams at the end of the class.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The real lesson I learned during my time in university is that the two real edges that elite universities give you (as a student) are 1) social connections to the children of the rich and leaders in the field that you can mine for recommendations and 2) a "wow" factor on your resume. You can't really get the first at a state school or community college, and you definitely can't get the second at a state school or community college, despite learning similar if not the same material in a given field of study.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It hasn't been about (just) the learning for a long time.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895345"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chipsrafferty 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This, but also learning is like the mental equivalent of lifting weights.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's not so much what you learn, but that you train it hard.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892999"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Mbwagava 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't think diplomas have mattered for decades, at least in tech. Let's not pretend anything improved with the introduction of chatbots.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Annyway, any advantage is entirely offset by having to live in a world with LLMs. I'd prefer the tradition of having to educate retarded college graduates. At least they grow into retarded adults. What are we gonna do about chatbots? You can't even educate them, let alone pinocchio them.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893825"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;microtonal 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;What becomes the signal then? Will we shift back into apprenticeship based employment? How do potential laborers display their critical thinking skills apart from displaying them in person?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is already true to some extend. Not apprenticeship taking place of college, but the last couple of places I worked hiring generally happened based on: I already know this person from open source projects/working with them in a company/etc.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In certain companies, degrees were already unimportant even before LLMs because they generally do not provide a very good signal.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893475"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;figassis 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I might be a good thing. Colleges have become complacent and too expensive. Costs of an education have been increasing while employment opportunities decreasing for some degree categories. People have been sounding alarms for a while and colleges have not been listening. The student loan market is booming.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Now if students can shortcut the education process, they can spend less time in it and this may force colleges to reinvent themselves and actually rethink what education looks like in the new era.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895309"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chipsrafferty 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Why wouldn't the shift to be to raise the standards of the schools?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897913"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's aroind 5 years out but schools are gonna have a rude awakening as the population decrease finally catches up to them. The standards won't raise because many will simply shut down over lack of students.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The Harvards will be fine, though. But I guess that will raise the standards naturally.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43896034"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;vishnugupta 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I was somewhat downvoted for saying something similar recently here [1].&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Four year degree is a very expensive investment in the current environment. We should push younger people to face the real world as soon as possible. Apprenticeship is indeed a great way to achieve that IMO. As a great side effect the young people won’t have to start out their careers saddled with huge debt.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43768903&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891691"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Mengkudulangsat 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; If students find a way to get a diploma without doing the work, it will soon be worth less than the paper on which it is printed.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Amen.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I look forward to the era where we train professionals the old fashion way: apprenticeships. It sure worked for blacksmiths and artisans for hundreds of years.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892276"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;pjmlp 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;That is how many professionals are training in many European countries, and they still want a diploma to go with it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In many countries, regardless of how learning it was achieved, you still need a paper to prove that you actually did it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And in countries like Germany, better keep all those job evaluations close at heart because they get asked for as part of many job interview processes, additionally have them reviewed by lawyers, as they legally can't say anything negative, there is an hidden language on how to express negativity which to the reader sound positive on first read.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893198"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;exe34 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;He regularly turned up to work. He attempted every task that he was given. His manager evaluated the results.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893458"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Akronymus 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Techbically even those hidden phrases arent permitted by law, and you have the right to get those phrases removed/have it be turned into a basic evaluation (just from when to when + what job)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The employers that do use those hidden phrases just hope they arent challenged/the employee doesnt notice.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Thats also why most evaluations are entirely written in the superlative.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893800"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;pjmlp 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Unfortunely they are common enough to keep lawyers and book publishing businesses going with dictionaries "evaluation =&amp;gt; real meaning", exactly for that little help to go though it and validate its correctness.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Many employeers profit from foreigners that aren't well versed in these nuances, and have to be educated this is a thing.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;An example for others not used to German work market,&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://www.karriereakademie.de/arbeitszeugnis-formulierunge...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Just go through the site with your favourite translation tool.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897118"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chmod775 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;There's software for that even. The input is a ranking of the employee on a bunch axis (1-5 or something) and it spits out the appropriate text. Does the reverse too.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898278"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;pjmlp 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;That one is new to me, sadly doesn't surprise me.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;When one gets to have a good works council, there are plenty of stories that go around.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893826"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;grumbelbart2 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;"Missing" information is a huge red flag as well, though. If an Arbeitszeugnis only lists the dates and what the person worked on, and nothing about results or behavior, we would never invite them for an interview.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43899786"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Akronymus 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;It could be that the employee left due to being on bad terms with the employer, for something at fault with the employer. I personally wouldnt take a basic one as that hard a strike.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892297"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;eirikbakke 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;PhDs are apprenticeships. Students perform original research under the supervision of a doctoral advisor, and submit their work to a "guild" of external reviewers (peer reviewed journals or conferences). Once the student has three peer-reviewed publications, they graduate.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895781"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;thugthrasher 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;"Once the student has three peer-reviewed publications, they graduate."&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's not a standard at all. You usually can't graduate without at least one peer-reviewed publication, but beyond that, as far as number of publications goes, it varies a lot from institution to institution. The biggest standard is that you complete a dissertation and defend it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892855"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jll29 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;An apprentice, after five years of work, can be a master, just by practcising.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's why the universities of Oxford and Cambridge give Master's degree to everyone that gets a Bachelor's degree after five years, without further examination or coursework (note that these are MAs only, not MRes, MPhil or MBA degrees, which typically require 1-2 years of studies, exams and theses).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Historically, the academic Master was seen as equivalent to a Master in a craft (e.g. philosophy &amp;lt;=&amp;gt; carpentry).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891748"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;smcg 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Companies don't want to retain anyone longer than 2 years. They would never go for this unless forced to. By collective action.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892233"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;renewiltord 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;It’s not that they can’t. It’s that I can always pay more by freeloading on their training.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897964"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Sure, then they complain that "nobody wants to work abymore".&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;They can't have it both ways&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892128"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;melagonster 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Teenagers and children were treated as a free servant for several years, and probably cannot learn anything.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891602"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;SV_BubbleTime 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Soon?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I hire people now and where they went to school means little to me. The first priority is “can they do the work?” which is a niche programming. After that is established, I barely take note of school.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don’t personally count a CS degree as an indication the person is a good programmer, or thinks logically, or has good work ethic.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892520"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ozim 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Problem is you most likely don’t have that big operation.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For company I work for we hire 1 dev per year and I believe last year we did not even hire a single person.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So I do have time to check up the candidate do 3 rounds each 1 hr so that candidates can see what company are we and what person is the candidate. We also are small company so we don’t get that many applicants anyway.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I cannot imagine how it goes when someone needs to hire 20 devs in one quarter. Especially for a company that is any way known and they can get 1000CVs for a single position. They need to filter somehow.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897879"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;betterThanTexas 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;You could just as easily filter by having a github repo. It doesn't even need to be active or very full. Hell, that would also filter out a lot of people with college degrees! Might even save you time.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In my experience, only very large and bureaucratic institutions (governments, schools) really demand degrees and certifications.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892863"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;6510 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;HR seems a lot like real estate appraisal as~in appraisers know nothing about construction.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;One could in theory establish the value of a thing or person by comparing it with similar things but if everyone does that the process becomes senseless.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If a working car is worth 5000, the same car from the same year with a defect that costs 1000 to fix should be worth 4000. If the repair costs 6000 there is no car.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895804"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;betterThanTexas 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; It has value because a student can only get it by learning and problem-solving.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;No, it has value because it gatekeeps class mobility. Degrees haven't signified learning or problem solving longer than I've been alive. The attitude is that if you pay for an education, you're entitled to a degree. The education aspect is optional.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892623"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnisgood 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; If students find a way to get a diploma without doing the work, it will soon be worth less than the paper on which it is printed.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think this is already the case.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891635"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;7bit 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; It has value because a student can only get it by learning and problem-solving.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;No. It has value, because companies value it. It sets the starting point for your first salary and then for every salary negotiation moving forward.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As someone who did not go to university, but has the same knowledge self-taught I can tell you that this piece of paper would have opened so many doors and made life so much easier. It took me 15 years to get a salary, that people get with the piece of paper after graduating. And not because it took me 15 years to reach that level of knowledge. I had that by the time the other graduated.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I had a friend who always cheated in school, and now he works for a big car company and earned a fuck ton of money.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Life is unfair and companies only care about the paper your diploma is printed on. If students would ask me for advice, I would tell them to cheat whenever possible.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893509"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;slics 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;You forgot one big reward with your approach. You are not 200k in debt which will take that kid with diploma to get that piece of paper. You are debt free.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I am not arguing on the merit of having a diploma is a bad thing - the colleges these days have turned their backs on the people as well.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Average $100k to get a piece of paper (LLMs are not the issue here the useless degrees that the colleges offer). Invest that $100k at an average 15% return - it becomes a lot of money 25 years from now.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Or get a piece of paper (if your major is useless) and pay the banks 100k + interest.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893921"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;microtonal 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;That’s a very American point of view though. In many European countries people don’t build up such big debts. I’m from NL and the upper bound among my friends was something like 50,000, but most people had much lower debts between 0 and 20,000. (Yay for lower enrollment fees + part of the money is given as a gift).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And even if you ramped up a 50k debt, it’s a government loan where the interest rates are low, your monthly pay off is based on your salary, and if you are not able to pay the debt within a certain period, it’s wiped away.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893849"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;grumbelbart2 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;While you are fully right, that is very US-centric. Tuition is practically free in large parts of Europe, for example.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891942"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Ma8ee 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;And companies value it because it signals that the holder of that paper can do the work and isn’t completely stupid.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892047"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;samplatt 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;In reality, holding a piece of paper has nothing in common with relevant ability. Some graduates will exit university as competent people, some won't.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This isn't exactly news, or even a recent phenomenon. My peers who finished their CS degree circa 2004 ish were a broad mix of utter idiots who shouldn't get a job in that field, or damn sharp (if green) technically-minded people, or somewhere in between.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The industry will sort them out; the ones that can, do, the ones that can't, will do something else of use, or find another job.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893018"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Jensson 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;There is a correlation, that is all you need for it to be valuable. Remove the correlation and value isn't there any more, see US masters in computer science for example that one doesn't correlate with skill so it isn't valued, but the bachelor is. In countries where a masters is correlated with skill they are values though.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893496"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Ekaros 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I really think that they are used because it is easiest and cheapest fully legal filter. When you have significant number of candidates any filter that comes first to mind is selected. Degree is one such one that won't ever legally bite you.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893017"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;immibis 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Originally, yes, but hiring practices are about as inbred as the artistic tastes of the demoscene, so now they value it because they value it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893437"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;7bit 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;That holds the same truth as that all other person can't do the work and are completely stupid. Which is zero.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893717"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;klibertp 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; It has value because a student can only get it by learning and problem-solving.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;No. That's how it should be, but the reality looks different: it has value because it shows that someone spent 3+ years doing what they were told to do, enduring all the absurdities they were subjected to in the meantime. Whatever means they used to cheat don't matter, since they still worked on what someone told them to and produced results satisfying the expectations.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There are, perhaps, institutions where learning and problem-solving are seen as the most important while "following orders" and "staying in line" are deemphasized. For the students of all the others, putting up with an utterly absurd environment is often one of the biggest barriers to learning. Yet, it's a requirement without fulfilling which you can forget about graduating. Hence my conclusion: the diploma from most learning institutions certifies you as a good corporate drone - and that's enough of a signal in many situations, so why bother trying to fix it?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895766"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;alexvitkov 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is a very bold statement, you should consider substantiating it at least a little, maybe give just one example on what those absurdities collee students have to endure are, that prove they're good corporate drones?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;From what I remember it was 4 years of learning stuff I signed up to learn, occasionally being quizzed on said stuff, and then they gave me a paper that claims I know the stuff.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43896756"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;klibertp 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;You might live in another country where the situation is different, or maybe my experiences are outdated (20 years later, they might be). What I remember is unfairness and corruption, feudal-like relationships, tons of wasted time on things I didn't sign up for and things I already knew but couldn't say I know for fear of retaliation. I was still better than people going to private institutions: on top of all that, they were also extorted for money at every turn. ...thinking about it, yeah, I really hope my experience is outdated.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897870"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;betterThanTexas 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I'm not saying a college CAN'T provide an education, but it IS a little ridiculous you can't just test pass four years of regurgitating textbooks. Ideally for a fraction of the cost.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891729"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;PKop 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;And that won't be their problem, they'll be long gone having achieved what they wanted when they were cheating. It is a societal problem or institutional and industry problem. If the market and these universities want these degrees to mean anything as signaling mechanism they must stop these students from cheating some way somehow...the students are never going to stop themselves.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891743"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;smcg 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;But it will always be worth more than not having it, so companies will still require it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892704"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mordae 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Good. It's about time.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897198"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;TiredOfLife 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;You can also get it by cheating and bribing.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891811"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dmazzoni 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Consider that there is some in-between.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Some college students may be genuinely interested in one particular subject, but they're required to take a bunch of other courses, and consider those to just be hurdles.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I still think they're better off at least making an effort and trying to learn something, but I do think it's important to note that just because a student has no interest in one particular class, doesn't mean they have no interest in any class.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43894783"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;inanutshellus 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;There is no in-between here. Consider:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The course I'm interested in gets kinda hard, and my "just pull up an LLM" muscle is very, very strong, (and besides, I'm not used to struggling! and why should I get used to it in the classes i like?! I can't afford a C in my major!) so ... I use LLMs on my "I'm interested in it" class too and... we're back to the original argument.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892296"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ascorbic 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Most people don't go to college to learn for the sake of learning – that would be a very expensive luxury. They go for the opportunities that it opens up. The learning itself helps with that, but so does being able to prove that they've learned it. That what the diploma is meant to be for.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892606"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;simonask 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;That's a US-centric view. A huge number of people in the world have access to high level education free of charge.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893265"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;garygatory 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Opportunity cost is cost.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43907565"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ascorbic 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I'm not American. I said most people, and most people in the world don't have free university education.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891738"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sublinear 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes, but piano lessons are not a music degree. Similarly, vocational programs or apprenticeships are not a formal education either.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I find a lot of these comments more disturbing than the concerns about AI.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892293"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;pjmlp 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Similarly, vocational programs or apprenticeships are not a formal education either.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;They are in some countries, you get at the vocational programs or apprenticeships alongside the highschool, and in the end you might get the opportunity to apply to the university or just carry on with your job.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That is how I did mine in the 1990's Portuguese education system, and how I was already coding and understanding the big boys computer world at 16y.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891820"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dmazzoni 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;But if your goal is to be a musician, a music degree is basically useless. Whether you want to play in an orchestra, perform in a rock band, or compose video game soundtracks, nobody cares whether you have a degree or not - they want to hear you perform.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892779"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;TheOtherHobbes 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I won't say there are exactly zero self-taught professionals in classical music because I don't know for sure. But I will say I've never heard of one. If they exist at all they're exceptionally rare.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The music industry is built on the back of people with music degrees. They don't get the name recognition of headliners. But song writers, arrangers, and session musicians are all very likely to have formal training in theory and maybe performance.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Producers and engineers less so. Those are more of a track record who-you've-worked-with occupation.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898036"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;All industries are built on the backs of truly educated and passionate talent. Those people often don't reap the fruit they help sow to everyone else that makes billions, trillion off them.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Music is no different from software in thst regard.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892023"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dragonmost 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Not only is that not true at all. There are many other jobs you can land other than performing with a formal music degree. Of course with the right experience you might get away with not getting that formal education but you open so many doors by going through school and getting the "useless" piece of paper.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892454"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dontTREATonme 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Case in point: Rachel “Raygun” Gunn. She had all the credentials in the world but single-handedly became the reason break dancing is no longer in the Olympics.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892613"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dwighttk 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Slight overstatement... break dancing was one of the locally picked sports and the next Olympics had already selected different sports before she performed...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But she is a good example of degrees not equaling skill&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895819"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;thugthrasher 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;It should also be noted that she doesn't have a degree in "performing," as far as I'm aware, she has a degree in "studying the culture" of break dancing. So, we (or at least any of us who haven't read her work) don't actually know if she's good at what her degree is in. We just know that she's not good at performing.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891381"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Suppafly 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I don't think that's a good comparison. I went college to learn and was also relieved occasionally when professors canceled class and still had to force myself to study. I'm sure plenty of your piano teachers students don't enjoy practicing the same notes over and over but do so because they want to know how to play piano.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891980"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ijidak 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Absolutely. Also, the level of cheating in college, even pre-AI is often overlooked in these articles.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For the exact reasons you state, pre-AI homework was often copied and then individuals just crammed for the tests.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;AI is not the problem for these students, it's that many students are only in it for the diploma.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If it wasn't AI it would just be copying the assignment from a classmate or previous grad.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And I imagine the students who really want to learn are still learning because they didn't cheat then, and they aren't letting AI do the thinking for them now.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898779"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;importantbrian 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm not sure this is entirely fair. When I was in college I genuinely enjoyed learning and now that I'm out of school I still spend time learning about the subjects of my major and minor in my free time, but this would have described me pretty well in school, "they're relieved when their professors cancel class, and they need to be bullied into studying outside of class." I love to learn, but something about being forced to do it makes me rebel against it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In some ways offering the diploma and all the requirements that go with that take the joy out of the learning for me.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892044"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Moru 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;There are jobs that turns you down if you don't have that diploma. No amount of real world experience will get you past that bar. If it's not there, they wont even look at the rest of your application.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898350"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;eptcyka 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Sure, if we can agree that there exist courses for which we can agree that using an LLM to pass is a reasonable thing to do, would we also not agree that the course should be nuked from orbit?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897826"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think several orthogonal concepts are touched in this.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;1. Students given bad incentives to be thrown into a system with a completely different purpose than their main goal. Then those jobs turning face to suddenly say "schools teach you nothing" and even refuse to hire the newest generation.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;2. Students in general not being stimulated by primary school and given direction and vision on what to do in life. Simply being pushed by parents to "be successful".&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;3. The crippling reality as of late that a job doesn't even guarantee keeling a roof over your head anymore. Leading to discouragement to even bother trying.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;4. Connected to #2, the decline of various apprenticeships, internships (which are now a college recruiting pipeline), and other ways to invest in employees. Even if they complain about new grad output, they are still content outsourcing such training instead of investing in their employees for a career.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There's a lot of systems failing which can arguably cause an entire collapse in the country. Then no one will get an opportunity to properly learn.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895499"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tayo42 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; students went to college only to learn, colleges wouldn't bother giving diplomas.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You have this option with things like mits open courseware. Some colleges are OK with you just wanting to learn&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891338"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;MengerSponge 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is, famously, why nobody gets a degree in fine arts. (/s)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Your piano teacher does not give a diploma because she is not offering a university education. If she worked with a few other experts and they designed a coordinated curriculum and shepherded students through it over the course of two to four years, and documented that process to the point where they could file with an accrediting agency, then she could issue a degree in piano.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891405"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;godelski 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;pre&gt;&amp;gt; then she could issue a degree in piano.&lt;/pre&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's worth noting, plenty of universities do this. You can get a degree "in piano".&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892867"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;TheOtherHobbes 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;You can get a BMus in Piano Performance, which is a standard music degree with a piano performance specialisation. It's not a special thing of its own kind, and it's normal for performers in music college to specialise in one instrument, usually with a second as an elective.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Being able to play moderately hard pieces from dots and sight-reading are the entry level requirement. It's taken for granted you can already do that.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The degree part means learning music history, theory, and performance styles, working on performance projects, solo and with other musicians.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The analogy with ChatGPT is that it's taking over the entry-level part of the process. You can't expect to get onto a music degree if you only know how to prompt ChatGPT to produce a MIDI file for your entrance exam.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And in CS, you can't produce good code if you barely know what a server is.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's all very Dunning Kruger. If you use an LLM to produce course work to get your piece of paper at the end, you don't even know what prompts you should use to do an unfamiliar job, never mind having the skills to do it yourself.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891609"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;aniforprez 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Yes they did actually say that. They go into the process of accreditation that would result in a person or institute being able to give a degree "in piano"&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891846"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;godelski 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Not every reply is written to disagree.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891042"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mlsu 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;The point of education isn't to actually learn though. It's to receive the credential.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is much larger than a cultural problem with the students of today. They believe, rightfully and accurately, that the university degree is yet another part of the machine that they will become a cog in.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;What should be alarming to everyone is that these students will graduate without having learned anything and then go into the workplace where they will continue to not use their atrophied critical thinking skills, to simply do yet more, as a cog in the machine.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891153"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bumby 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This attitude is part of a more general cultural shift. Back in the 1960s, the majority of students said the primary motivation for going to college was to develop a philosophy of life, and a minority said the main goal was to be very financially successful. Somewhere around the 1980s this started to shift and the proportions are now inverted.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;* according to the UCLA CIRP freshman survey&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891514"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tcmart14 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I would also say some of the attitude shift is also contradictory. The amount of people I interact with who have a lot of bad things to say about the education who tell me universities should focus on education in a general meanwhile also say that schools to should focus on student getting jobs. Probably one that has been heard before, something along the lines of, "why don't high schools teach plumbers courses." I mean they can. While also, "colleges are too focused on checking the boxes so students can get jobs."&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893277"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tpmoney 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's not inherently contradictory to hold both positions, if your overarching position is that the schools are in a weird in-between state that serves neither well. My time in school was marked with both forms of frustration.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I wanted to learn a new language and I wanted to take some history courses that covered regions and eras not well covered in my high school courses. But despite my university having a significant "elective" component to my degree path, none of those courses were on the list of allowed electives for my degree. So in this case, the university was failing at a focus on education by hindering my ability to branch out away from my core studies and requiring that I take "electives" that were more closely associated with the imagined career path my degree would provide.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;On the flip side, the "core" courses for my degree were bogged down in academic minutia and exercises that bore only the most surface level resemblance to the things I've done in my actual career. Often the taught material was out of date relative to the state of the industry. Other times the material was presented with philosophical reasons for learning the material, but with no practical application backing it to help make that philosophy complete. And very little material (if any) covered the usage of tools of the industry. In this case, we're failing the goal of setting people up for their careers by not teaching the practical applications of the knowledge. And to be clear this isn't just a "learning examples are by necessity simplified examples" problem. I later went back to school at a local community college for different material and from day one those courses were more relevant and more up to date. They provided material that was immediately useful in real world applications of the underlying knowledge. And I think some of that was because many of the courses for that community college were taught by industry veterans, either part time or as a "retirement" gig.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In short, my experience at a large university was indeed a series of boxes that were to be checked, ostensively to provide me a "well rounded" education, but practically all narrowly focused on getting me a job in the field. Yet the boxes also failed at being relevant enough to the state of the industry to actually give me a foundation to work from when starting my career.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895960"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;firesteelrain 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Where I am at, you can learn a skill in high school either via elective or a career technical track like working on airplanes, HVAC, construction, etc. Back in the 90s, I took automotive electives because I liked to work on cars back then. It would prepare you to work at a small automotive shop or as a hobby. I realized that it didn't make that much money so switched to computers.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898359"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;And by my school years in the 00's those programs were slashed across the nation thanks to Bush. They just kept putting down the blue collar work and encouraged everyone to go to college. Right as they make student loans unbankruptale.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Always follow the money&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898535"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;firesteelrain 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;They are still around and I am in a Red state.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891825"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;hnfong 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [4 more]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;[flagged]&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892132"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;andai 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Our CS department head was overheard saying, "Our job is to create researchers."&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I found this quite striking, since something like 10% of undergrads go into research. Most people really are there to help them get a job.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So the program is designed not to meet the needs of 90% of its "customers".&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43917430"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bumby 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;There’s an argument that treating students as “customers” has led to all kinds of bad outcomes. One example is it creates an incentive to invest in all kinds of fancy infrastructure (fancy halls/dorms and even lazy rivers) because that is how they attract more “customers” but this ultimately becomes a huge driver of educational costs. The same can be said for watered down courses etc.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43931047"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tcmart14 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I would also add, look at the astonishing success (sarcasm), of for-profit colleges. They would have to be considered the extreme of treating students as customers and I don't really know any serious employer who accepts a degree from for-profit colleges. Unless the college is so new the employees hadn't heard of it before and don't know much about it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891739"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;PKop 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;And there were fewer students going to university and so you had a higher proportion of people doing it for the love of learning. It was easier to get a job without a degree. It's not just a cultural shift, it's a change of supply and demand.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892736"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lazide 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Notably, the late 70’s and early 80’s is when large scale social changes started to happen due to high inflation and major problems in the US economy. Also a lot of social unrest, and a pretty unhinged president (Tricky Dick).&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893367"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mike_hearn 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;The same issues are seen in other countries. It's not specific to US presidents or policy. The insistence on maximizing university attendance was a widespread idea coming out of the left, e.g. in Britain it was heavily pushed by Tony Blair. The Blair government also raised tuition fees considerably.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The stated rationale at the time was that degree holders earn more, so if everyone gets a degree, everyone will earn more. I am doubtful that was the true rationale but it's how the policy was sold to people.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893548"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Ekaros 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Also I think massaging unemployment numbers for a while is reasonable goal. After all those in education are not counted as unemployed.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898404"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The mentality isn't, but the costs are US unique. You can afford to "explore" a bit of your youth if you're not going into 6 figures of debt.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895602"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;kipchak 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Arguably the cause of the cultural shift is economic. Wages began stagnating in the early 1970s, which caused increased demand for diplomas as a way to increase wages. This is most striking in the number of students seeking law degrees, which shoots off at around the same time.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898225"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bluecheese452 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yeah because in the 60s you could support a wife and 4 kids, buy a house and 2 cars, without a high school diploma, all before turning 25. There was no reason to go to college unless you were interested in learning.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;These days you need a college degree just to afford a 1 bedroom apartment by the time you are 40.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891357"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;MengerSponge 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;We (America) made university educations super expensive. Causality is complicated, but it probably started as an effort to destroy the anti-war movement in the 70's.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891476"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sgustard 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;"Most financial experts attribute he sudden increases that started in the 1970s with an influx of federal funding designed to make college more affordable."&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-college-by-year&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43917558"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;MengerSponge 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Expensive things can be affordable. A house is expensive, but with stable employment and a bank loan you can afford it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;When we're talking about college costs, public schools are really the only institutions that matter. The Ivies (or even Ivy+) are a rounding error compared to the big midwestern land-grant universities and the UC and Cal State systems.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;States have substantially reduced their per-student support for universities: https://www.ppic.org/publication/higher-education-funding-in...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This coincides with federal funding programs, but student loans are famously not dischargeable, which makes them more instruments of social control than conventional financial vehicles.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891180"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mschuster91 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Somewhere around the 1980s this started to shift and the proportions are now inverted.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yeah, that's when the great "push for education" came, as well as neoliberalism which preached continuous hustling and individuality. And in the 90s, the ADA and other anti discrimination laws hit, and requiring a college degree was and still is a very useful pre-screening filter for HR to continue discrimination.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891382"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;shawn-butler 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's also as I recall when tuition and student costs started to spike in the US which is probably more directly related than some "philosophical" change in the zeitgeist[0]. When students and parents start racking up debt like this, you become very interested in the fastest way to pay it back.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For me the impact of the university administrators as they chased higher endowments for more buildings with naming rights and expanded their own bureaucracies with direct hires that did not directly contribute to the faculty mission did more to alter the university experience than anything else.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;[0]: https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-college-by-year&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893002"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;kharak 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;An anecdote to add to this:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Me and most of my peers in college had the choice between two courses. Course A was interesting, yet vastly more challenging and therefore time consuming, with the additional downside of lower grade expectation. Course B was boring, a gentle breeze in comparison, yet with an almost guaranteed perfect grade.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Imagine which course most students choose?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Even if a student wants to take on the more interesting course, incentives matter, and the incentive is: better grades qualify for better compensated positions and prestigious degrees. Only students who didn't care about this or were confident enough in their ability did choose Course A. In the end, barely a handful of students out of hundreds went with A.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891290"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;andrehacker 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Well, the credentials defintely help to GET the first job. As a cog in the machine though you are most often valued for skills more than for credentials, at least in the U.S.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891053"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jjmarr 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; The reason a teacher asks you a question is not because they don’t know the answer.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;A decent amount of my professors don't know the answers because they bought the course, test questions, and lectures from Cengage. During exam review, they just regurgitate the answer justification that Cengage provided. During the lectures, they struggle to explain certain concepts since they didn't make the slides.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Professors automate themselves out of the teaching process and are upset when students automate themselves out of the learning process.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I can tell when the faculty views teaching as a checkbox that they officially have to devote 40% of their time to. I can tell when we are given busywork to waste our time instead of something challenging.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;To use your analogy, I'm being told to move 1000 plush reproductions of barbells from Point A to B by hand because accreditation wants to see students "working out" and the school doesn't want high failure rates.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We are all pulling out the forklift. Some of us are happy because we don't have to work as hard. Others are using the forklift so we can get in a real workout at home, as school is not a good use of our time. Either way, none of us see value moving paperweights all day.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;edit:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;My favourite course during my Computer Engineering degree was Science Fiction because that professor graded us on substance instead of form. It was considered a hard class because one would get good marks on the essays by focusing on building substantive points instead of strict adherence to the form of a five-paragraph hamburger essay.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The call to action is to make courses harder and stop giving students plush barbells.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For example, University of Toronto Engineering Science (hardest program in Canada) gives first-year students a "vibe coding" lab in which students learn how to solve a problem that AI cannot.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://www.cs.toronto.edu/~guerzhoy/vibecoding/vibecoding.h...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43894129"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;pca006132 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;There are many issues here. The lack of incentives is probably the most important one. For new professors (in research universities), good teaching is usually just a good thing to have, but it is not a deciding factor for their tenure. When they get their tenure, they probably have enough students, and they need to work hard to apply for funding and keep the students paid. Administrators care most about ranking, and teaching isn't really evaluated in the ranking. They just push the professors to do more research and apply for more funding.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It is also hard to evaluate university teaching because there are no benchmarks for that (compared with high school, for example), and it is hard to judge if teaching is good from student feedback. You can only know if someone fucked up or did really well, which are outliers.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There are other issues as well. Professor IMO is a ridiculous job, you are supposed to be an expert in the field, be a researcher, be a manager, be a teacher, be a salesman, all at the same time. There are people who can excel in all these, but these are probably just outliers. It doesn't help when PhD training doesn't train you to be a proper manager and teacher. While there are some teaching training, I think we are not really held to a high enough standard. E.g. One can pass the teaching course if they just show up and spend some time, even though their teaching is horrible.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898329"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;StefanBatory 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Meanwhile at my uni, at Masters, I'm being taught how to create and delete rows in HTML - I wish I wasn't kidding. :(&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892745"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lazide 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;But that requires professors to do work and give a damn!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43899981"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;These projections about bad professor experience is exactly why colleges became so hyperconpetitive. The difference between a competitive (and not even exclusive level like Ivies) and a "semi-competitive" is night and day in terms of rigor, staff talent, and overall environment.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But sure, you're always going to find a few meh or bad professors. And they will stick out as much ad thr great professors&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897006"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;vendiddy 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's a good one.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;One analogy I use a lot: if I have a professor sitting next to me, what is the best way to learn a topic?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Struggle through it on my own and I won't be leveraging the professors knowledge.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Ask the professor to do everything for me and I won't be learning anything at all.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Now if the professor is an AI, the same trade-offs hold.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For example, I will back and forth conversations with AI to explain subjects to me. I ask questions, push back, ask for examples, and so on.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If I do ask the AI to answer something for me, I then ask it to break down the answer for me so I can make sure I understand it deeply.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And of course, none of this matters if I don't want to learn something :)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898123"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;The fatal flaw here is that an AI is more like asking a politician. Except maybe it won't gaslight you. It often has no idea what it's talking about, and pushing back may even have it change it's tune.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;And of course, none of this matters if I don't want to learn something :)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Society makes people do a lot of things they don't want. I wonder if we're going to hit a breaking point this generation.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891252"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;code_biologist 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Using an LLM to do schoolwork is like taking a forklift to a gym where you're told the goal is to be healthy and strong, but they can't really stop you from using a forklift, and jobs and compensation are given out according to how much you lifted irrespective of forklift use.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891782"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;karpierz 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Except part of the job involves lifting things in places where forklifts can't fit.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892516"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dyauspitr 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;They fit in most places or will over the next few years with the next “forklift” version.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43900457"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sn9 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Any job that can be done by a forklift will be done by an automated forklift that doesn't require a driver.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891734"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Mbwagava 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; If all we were interested in was moving the weights around, you’d be right to use a tool to help you.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Does the use of a quantifiable metric like a GPA not exacerbate this? In a world where people take a GPA seriously, you'd have to be irrational to not consider cheating a viable option.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You could say the same about credit score and dating apps. These institutions assist the most predatory and harm the most vulnerable.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892981"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Mbwagava 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Ooh ranked gaming, too. Also any kind of market activity.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891493"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sgustard 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Why do some countries cheat in the Olympics? Because it is no longer a contest of human achievement, it's just about the medals as a symbol of national glory. Of course: once all countries are doping, the medals will become meaningless. College degrees will suffer the same fate if everyone cheats to get them.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892519"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dyauspitr 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The problem is there is no reliable way to test for LLM usage unlike for doping. There’s no way to police this problem.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892750"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lazide 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Sure there is - evaluate the candidates actual skill level without the ability to use automated tools.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The current and old school way is a proctored exam.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43896759"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dyauspitr 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Testing doesn’t work for everything, especially for dissertations, publications, research etc. That being said I’m wholeheartedly in favor of using extensive in class testing when applicable.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43900009"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;It works for enough that 99% of cheaters are weeded out. Perfection is the enemy of "good enough".&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Also, always keep in mind the most underrated kind of cheater: the clearly smart kid who cheats to go from an A- to an A. That level of student can't be "caught" with tests because by all accounts they already know and have even mastered the material. The pressure at that level of competitiveness simply requires zero room for doubt. Not really what the article is about, but some food for thought.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43896793"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;biker142541 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Diversity in evaluation methodology is a reliable way for many subject. Even short, minimal handwritten exams would help to assess student understanding at a few key checkpoints and should should be reintroduced.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891264"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;thaumasiotes 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; The reason a teacher asks you a question is not because they don’t know the answer.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I remember illustrating a point to a class by posing a question and then calling on a student I figured wasn't smart enough to answer correctly so that everyone could see her make the mistake.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The ethics of that still bother me.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892971"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dep_b 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;If I could have a healthy and good looking physique by never going to the gym I would never go to the gym.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893453"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;59nadir 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Right, but people using LLMs aren't actually getting the mental equivalent of a healthy and good looking physique if they let LLMs do stuff for them.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43900026"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Well, you could. Most people prefer their pre-processed food over never going to the gym though.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893663"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mFixman 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;The tragedy is not that some students are going to college to get a diploma while learning as little as possible. It is that the boards of many private universities see their students' cash as more important than their education, and force the professors to pass everybody who went to higher education to buy a diploma.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This has a negative feedback loop where universities have to lower standards to bring dumber and lazier students to compete with other diploma mills.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895639"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;thesz 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;pre&gt;&amp;gt; like taking a forklift to the gym.&lt;/pre&gt;&lt;p&gt;First, you will have excellent forklift skills in the end. A real profession!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Second, girls dig forklift operators or so I was told.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893071"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;agumonkey 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I use chatgpt in a socratic way from time to time because I don't want answers I want the joy of thinking and learning. I heard there were efforts to make educational LLMs (whatever that means). Maybe it will help multiply teachers leverage so that more kids get inspired without having the teacher spend 1-on-1 time with them.. I don't know.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897442"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chias 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I love this analogy because it's also not a waste of time to learn how to use a forklift!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But the gym isn't the best place to engage in forklift training. And you engage in forklift training at the gym, expect to learn how to use a forklift to lift gym weights. Don't expect to also get the benefits that the gym is designed to impart.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891918"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;beAroundHere 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think you're quoting the Sci Fi author - Ken Liu from his article in some major news outlet.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I related with that analogy too, infact that whole piece is worth reading. I can't seem to find it's link though!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891952"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;I-M-S 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's because you've mixed him up with Ted Chiang - the article in question is Why A.I. Isn’t Going to Make Art [1]&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;[1] https://archive.is/kS8NY&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891151"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;gsf_emergency 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think LLMs, if used correctly, can be useful for BOTH the credentialing and the human resource development (*cough*)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Essentially, since they are a summary of "the" state of knowledge, the teacher should be able to ask them to put a number on how novel a piece of text is.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Once LLMs are able to evaluate, independently, the soundness of an argument... (Hopefully, this will be achieved AFTER $5 H100s reach the average consumer)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892395"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;grey-area 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;LLMs are sometimes wrong, and they don’t know they are wrong, nor do students.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;They are the wrong tool for pedagogy.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892920"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mewpmewp2 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;But going to school to prepare for life is like going to gym to lift weights to prepare for a marathon.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897153"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;switchbak 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;It's an e-bike for the mind!&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892256"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Balgair 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think we have to hold off a bit on the whole thing here.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Look, we have no idea what the feedback is like that this grad student gives, what the class sizes are like, what the cadence is, what the grade percentages are, etc. All we know is that Clayton Ramsey is a grad student at Rice in the robotics department and that he wrote a hot take here.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For me, the most important thing is if this grader is bothering to really grade at all. I think we've all had a harried grad student just dash off a few red lines on the week one HW about a week before the final exam. That's not a 2 way street, and if the feedback isn't as in-depth as he wants the work to be, well, he shouldn't be surprised. He can't be expecting students to put in the time unilaterally. But, we don't know any of that really.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Personally, I think that before the decade is out, we're not going to be talking about this at all. Because the students will be adept enough at using the LLMs to make it look like their own writing anyways. This is a problem that experience will solve for them.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And also, I think that the days of the massive lectures and essays are pretty much cooked. That 'cheap' model of education can't survive this LLM revolution. We obviously have to change what the heck higher education is trying to do.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;My take is that we're going to go to smaller class sizes like those at St. John's or Oxbridge. Under 10 people, you have to have done the reading or look like a fool, all with a PhD in the subject as a guide/teacher. Large classes weren't cutting it for decades (ask any Frat about their test banks), and now the veil is just ripped off.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43896160"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;thugthrasher 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;We will never reduce all class sizes to under 10 people. Large R1 schools are not going to reduce their number of students by a factor of 10 or increase their hiring by a factor of 10.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43905598"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;StefanBatory 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I have classes like these, but at a small Masters programme and only on our courses directly related to specialisation :D&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895544"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Kapura 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;forklift gym gang gang&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43896456"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;normyguy 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Dangers of Intelligence and Other Scientific Essays by Asimov predicted all this hullabaloo quite a while ago. So, yeah, seems like evidence to support your position. Welcome to the party. :)&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895043"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;indymike 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Using an LLM to do schoolwork is like taking a forklift to the gym.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm sure the time has come for college students to master using LLMs. It's just as important as grammar or basic math now. The software I build (and the entire tech industry) automates huge swaths of business processes with AI. Students need to be able to understand, work with, and manage swarms of AI agents doing work.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;To stick to the analogy:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I need skilled forklift drivers, not big buff workers like I used to.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895617"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;doctorwho42 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;But the thing you are missing is that one needs a solid foundation of knowledge of the actual work to be able to manage it well.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Someone with years of coding experience is going to be able to laser guide an AI agent to the answer/result than someone who has muddled their way through comp sci 101 using an AI chatbot.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43896517"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;indymike 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;No one is saying they don't need a solid foundation of knowledge. The knowledge needed is different. What we're seeing now is lot like teaching people to care for a horse even though the automobile is now the dominant form of transportation&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43900072"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you need forkloft drivers, don't recruit at the gym and be mad no one is forklift certified there.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This isn't even an opinion on LLMs, it's recruiting 101. You're free to convince the gym to train forklift drivers, but don't be surprised when you're laughed out the room.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43907599"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;whattheheckheck 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;It's the other way around... people will happily pay to be "forklift driver certified" and a piece of paper that gets them a bit higher in the hiring line. Especially when they'll pay way more for that than ethereal "thinking skills" that they can't even reason why they'd need that in the first place&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893090"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dogcomplex 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you took a forklift to the gym, you'd come out of the experience not only very good at "lifting weights", but having learned a whole lot more about the nature and physics of weightlifting from a very different angle.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Sure, you should lift them yourself too. But using an AI teaches you a shit-ton more about any field than your own tired brain was going to uncover. It's a very different but powerful educational experience.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43900061"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; But using an AI teaches you a shit-ton more about any field than your own tired brain was going to uncover.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you never learn to research, sure. Otherwise, you should be worried about accuracy, up to date information, opinionated takes, and outright lies/misinformation. The tool you use doesn't change these factors.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43901691"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dogcomplex 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;No but it increases the speed and ease at which you can check any of those - making a lot of those steps practical when they were a slog before. If people aren't double-checking LLM claims against sources then they were never on guard for those without an LLM either.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Besides, those are incredibly short-term concerns. Recent models are a whole lot more trustworthy and can search for and cite sources accurately.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43902670"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Does it? You google a query, get results, compare a few alternative results. You ask a prompt and what? Compare outputs to each other? Or just defer back to googling for alternative sources.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Firstly, these prompts tend to be shockingly close in behavior. Secondly, Google tends to rank reputable or self curated sites which have some accountability. It can be wrong but you know thr big news sites tend to at least defer to interviews to back up facts. Wikipedia has an overly strict process to prevent blatant, source less information.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There's room for error, but there's at least more accountability compared to what an LLM is going through.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Recent models are a whole lot more trustworthy and can search for and cite sources accurately.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Lastly, prompts are still treated as black boxes, which is a whole other issue. For the above reasons I still would simply defer to human curated resources. That's what LLMs are doing anyway without transparency.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;People want to give up transparency for speed? It seems completely counter to hacker culture.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890410"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;soerxpso 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; I should hope that the purpose of a class writing exercise is not to create an artifact of text but force the student to think&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm there for the degree. If I wanted to learn and engage with material, I could save $60,000 and do that online for free, probably more efficiently. The purpose of a class writing exercise is to get the university to give me the degree, which I cannot do by actually learning the material (and which, for classes I care about, I may have already done without those exercises), but can only do by going through the hoops that professors set up and paying the massive tuition cost. If there were a different system where I could just actually learn something (which probably wouldn't be through the inefficient and antiquated university system) and then get a valid certificate of employability for having actually learned it, that would be great. Unfortunately, however, as long as university professors are gatekeepers of the coveted certificate of employability, they're going to keep dealing with this incentive issue.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892108"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;const_cast 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; I could save $60,000 and do that online for free, probably more efficiently.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Not to burst yours or anyone else's bubble, but no, probably not.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The hard part of learning isn't access to content, it's discipline and dedication. School provides structure, goals, timelines, and deliverables. The value of this cannot be understated.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I've heard from many people how they're going to learn programming online and then get a job as a developer. Almost all of them fail.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892411"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jampekka 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm teaching faculty at a university and, at least where it comes to lecture courses, I don't find this a bubble. There are definitely plenty of students who would do just fine, if not even better, without the external discipline and structure. And even more those who could do it with something like a MOOC or just a posted curriculum. And to be able to work without an external discipline is IMHO one of the main learning goals of university, and a decent rationale for why a university degree is taken as a signal for recruitment.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I learned programming online and got jobs as a developer (I did later study CS at a university though). In my experience the best developers are those who taught themselves. Admittedly this may have been more the case for my older generation where formal education for programming wasn't that great nor widely available.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892759"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;const_cast 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Those students do exist, but there are an exceedingly small minority. Of course, they won't tell you this, because everyone likes to believe they're self-motivated. Most people just aren't.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The simple question to ask is, when you go home, what do you do? If the answer is learn how to sew or work on your project car you've had for 10 months, you can probably learn on your own. If your answer is watch TV, play video games, go on a walk - then you can't, and you should go to university. Some people have told me this question is unfair. I mean, they're so tired from work, of course they want to relax. Well, guess what - your life doesn't stop if you're learning how to code on your own or whatever. If that's all it takes for you to not do it, then you don't have what it takes.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;How often are people picking up new and complex skills that takes years to get the hang of? Almost never. So there you go, most people require a formal, structured education to pull that off.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897307"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jampekka 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;There are plenty of students studying out of interest. It's very common to e.g. study excess courses. Many doing their theses can work very independently and go way beyond what's required.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Highly self-driven students are a minority, but not a rarity. People do things out of being interested and enjoying learning. It shouldn't be a surprise in a website called hacker news.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898421"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;achierius 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Speaking as someone who studied excess courses back in the day, I still agree with the GP. There's a big difference between being able to pursue random sparks of interest (as might someone picking up a course they find interesting) and consistently studying even when you aren't necessarily inspired by the material, or when the material is so hard it stops being fun. I spend a lot of time working on projects in my spare time even today, but I can think of only one case where I worked anywhere near as hard on one of those as I did on the projects for my university's OS course, or compilers course, or etc. Even students who do regularly go above and beyond would likely struggle without the structure to A) tell them what to learn, B) give them motivation -- because of course many students who do go the extra mile are still motivated by grades, prestige, research opportunities, etc.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893364"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lucianbr 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; There are definitely plenty of students who would do just fine, if not even better, without the external discipline and structure.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;How do you know? It's easy enough to assert, but what kind of proof can there be for this assertion? Obviously the students are enrolled in university, and their accomplishments without it are only hypothetical.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897877"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;Aurornis 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; I'm teaching faculty at a university and, at least where it comes to lecture courses, I don't find this a bubble. There are definitely plenty of students who would do just fine, if not even better, without the external discipline and structure.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't understand how you can make this claim based on observing students who are in an environment with discipline and structure.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I thoroughly believed this to be true when I was younger. I thought the explosion of the internet and availability of free course materials, videos, MOOCs, and any information you want was going to change the education game forever.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;What finally changed my mind was when I became a hiring manager. I decided I'd give an interview to almost every self-taught developer who applied. If someone didn't have a college degree listed on their resume, I'd schedule a call to hear their story. I thought I was going to be uncovering diamonds in the rough that other companies overlooked.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;With a few notable exceptions, it did not work out that way. Don't get me wrong: A couple of the self-taught developers were absolutely brilliant. However, I found that most were, to be blunt, not even progressing their intra-career knowledge as fast as peers with traditional backgrounds. We hired a few, but a common theme was that they needed more guidance for dealing with the structure and expectations of an office job.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I also had a few very above-average friends in high school who went the self-education route. "College is a waste of money" mindset. Voracious readers in their youth. Last I checked, both of them were bouncing from entry-level job to job.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Of course, there are students who go to paper-mill colleges who also learn very little.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think the value of a demanding, structured college education is partially the education, but largely about learning how to learn. Learning how to deliver, learning how to operate on a schedule, and having some structure to check your understanding relative to peers. Almost everyone I know (including me!) who does self-studying reading thinks their understanding is better than it is right up until they have to apply it, at which point they realize they didn't understand it as deeply as they thought. It's easy to read course materials and think "That makes sense" because it's logically consistent, but integrating the knowledge in a way that you can apply it and reason about it is harder. Structured learning forces people to do the latter, whereas self-guided learning leaves it as an exercise for the reader. An exercise that many don't follow up on.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43900917"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;YeGoblynQueenne 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;In my experience people who have learned to code by themselves write the most incomprehensible balls of spaghetti. Then when everyone else struggles with their garbage code they convince themselves it's because they're so good because they didn't need to go to uni and learned it all on their own.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Universities have all sorts of pathologies, from academic fraud to parasitic admins, but they also have people with deep knowledge of their field and who occasionally are even good teachers, and undergrad courses at least leave you enough time to explore and direct your own learning.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;They also put you in an environment where you can measure yourself against others, which you sure don't get sitting in your bedroom hacking your games. As a consequence, your head doesn't get inflated so much (unless you're top of the class, which kind of naturally resolves itself when you get your first job where everyone thinks you're a useless moron with no life experience).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Also: university libraries.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Edit: oh shit. I just realised. I did learn to code on my own O.o&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895037"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dennis_jeeves2 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;School provides structure, goals, timelines, and deliverables. The value of this cannot be understated.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That _may_ be true for the vast majority, but it's criminal to waste the time of bright young people by putting them though hoops. I would even speculate that that they phoney goals, timelines, and deliverables in school actually damage kids.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43901180"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;rbits 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's presumably possible, but I feel like people might underestimate what's required. Mind you, I went to university so maybe I'm biased and don't fully understand, but I feel like the structure given by the university is very important.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If I wanted to learn JavaScript or .NET or CSS or whatever I could easily do so online. But that's different from becoming a software developer. The important thing is that university doesn't focus on one topic, it teaches a variety of topics that they think will be useful for your career. You can do this without uni, but you need to be good at figuring out what to learn, not just how. And of course the discipline to complete your goals by yourself, like you mention.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Although maybe something you could do would be to look at a university's course structure and copy it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43900720"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;johnnyanmac 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's really concerning how many thing they can curate their own course curriculum and master it to the equivalent and rigor of a 4 year degree. You don't know what you don' know so that's exactly waht a teacher is for. o help you close gaps and push you a bit further. An athlete wouldn't think they can train as efficiently without a coach, I'm not sure why acedemis is seen any differently. Because people had a bad teacher here and there? Yeah, that's life. Don't typecast an entier population over one bad experience.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Also, do I really need to remind people here of the "resources" used when you struggle and need help while self-guided?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- I probably don't need to rant about StackOverflow. Discord can be incredibly hit or miss, many forum pleas goes uncalled. It can be really hard to get unsuck compared to asking a teacher about their own assignment&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- worse than asking quesions, forget getting high quality feedback on your project: getting people to do more than a quick skim takes effort in and of itself. You'd truly find an angelic soul if anyone decided to disect and correc your source code.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;- there's also so, so, so many domains to explore. How will you specialize without knowing they exist? And if you've dug deep into any domain, you know that this is where the publicly free knowledge truly dries up. You won't find a nifty course on low level optimization hacks, nor network architecture (beej gets close, but only touches the surface), nor modern rendering techniques. You'll find some 300 level material, but 400 level stuff will likely require a mix of cobbling project ideas together that's within your reach but also pushing you. Scoping is always hard to do, and nearly impossible while still a student.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And Software is one of the easier domains to self learn. Good luck with the lab based STEM, getting proper feedback in art while learning theory, taste testing as a cook, using power tools in any given blue collar work, etc.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890494"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palata 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; I'm there for the degree. If I wanted to learn and engage with material, I could save $60,000&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I would argue that if it costs $60,000, both your education system and the recruitment in those companies that require this degree are broken. It's not the case in all countries though.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Not that it is your fault, just stating the obvious.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891120"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chongli 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;It is broken. For every coveted job there are thousands of applicants. Employers will accept any signal that reliably predicts a modicum of intelligence, conscientiousness, and agreeability. University degrees cover all three.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But that's just the job market. The other elephants in the room are inflation and the housing market. People who don't have top-notch jobs (that require degrees) can't afford to buy a house. They can hardly afford rent. Cities don't want to build more housing because that will undermine the equity growth of homeowners.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We are a society of ladder-pullers.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891483"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;godelski 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;pre&gt;&amp;gt; We are a society of ladder-pullers.&lt;/pre&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't disagree, but often we complain about people pulling up ladders and when faced with the same decision we follow suit. Ultimately we can't change this behavior if no one is willing to defect from "conventional wisdom"&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892138"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lmm 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;We can't fix the problem by making better choices as individuals, and exhorting people to do so saps energy and distracts. The system interprets integrity as damage and routes around it.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892209"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;godelski 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;pre&gt;&amp;gt; We can't fix the problem by making better choices as individuals&lt;/pre&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's wildly inaccurate. Your logic necessitates that "the system" is not composed of individuals.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The problem itself was created through individual actions...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892527"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;joha4270 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;The problem of individuals making optimal choices on an individual scale being sub-optimal on a society scale is so widespread we have a specific phrase to describe it: Tragedy of the commons&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I would love to live in a world where everyone was altruistic and made correct choices for the long term good of society, but I don't. And there are limits to how much I'm willing to act as if I do, when in practice it just means I'm giving away resources to people who are purely (thinkingly or unthinkingly) selfish.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897192"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;godelski 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;pre&gt;&amp;gt; The problem of individuals making optimal choices on an individual scale being sub-optimal on a society scale&lt;/pre&gt;&lt;p&gt;The problem is people think this is a remotely accurate statement. These things only work if you use very low order approximations. Like being the only person and time not existing. As soon as you build any accuracy your net benefit more aligns with society.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The classic example of this is the marshmallow experiment. It's myopic. We do it all the time but frequency doesn't make an action intelligent https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43873275&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This isn't a tragedy of the commons issue. There's no finite resource we're all trying to draw upon in this case. The supply is generated by ourselves and it could be infinite if we chose to.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893390"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lucianbr 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Ultimately we can't change this behavior if no one is willing to defect from "conventional wisdom"&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;To me it reads as if you're contradicting yourself. It can be plainly seen that almost nobody is willing to defect. So change is impossible, you claim. Also change is possible, you claim. Which is it? You think people will change their choices as a result of you writing this comment and "winning" the argument?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I agree that people are responsible for the current situation, since their choices brought it about. That does not constitute a solution, though.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;One or a thousand individuals changing their choice by themselves will do nothing. For tens of millions to change some external factor is required. If it was not, then it would have already happened. You say no external factor is required, so why do you think it didn't happen already, and why would it happen in the future?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897654"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;godelski 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;There's no contradiction.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;pre&gt;&amp;gt; So change is impossible, you claim&lt;/pre&gt;&lt;p&gt;I claim the opposite. Just because few people defect doesn't mean that rate is fixed and immutable. That is where you misunderstand. Really, my comment is a "call to arms". It is a literally a plea to ask people of HN, including you, to become the change we all want to see. Follow your own logic. You have given up and are trying to justify it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You are not mindless automata.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You have a choice.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Your actions matter.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Things have changed before, they can change again.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Every big problem is composed of many small problems.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We programmers are experts in breaking complex things down. Sure, fixing one small problem doesn't solve the big problem, but they do add up. That's all I'm arguing. I'm asking that others stop being apathetic and defeatist, to get up, and continue. I'm extending my hand, will you take it? There's more of us making effort, will you help?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898588"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;achierius 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; You have given up and are trying to justify it&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;While I get where you're coming from -- I think the correct thing to do is to both move for systemic change and attempt to live the life you advocate for -- I think the position of "I'm moral, why do other people need the system change in order to be 'moral' as well?" more totally abandons the actual goal (fixing things) than the other way around. Fundamentally, things tend to change for material, systemic reasons, and so most often the best way to get at issues is not to go after individuals (whose behavior is more a symptom than the disease) but the root cause, the systemic influences that cause them to act that way.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43900162"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;godelski 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;pre&gt;&amp;gt; I think the correct thing to do is to both move for systemic change and attempt to live the life you advocate for&lt;/pre&gt;&lt;p&gt;You'll get no disagreement from me[0,1,2].&lt;/p&gt;&lt;pre&gt;&amp;gt; Fundamentally, things tend to change for material, systemic reasons, and so most often the best way to get at issues is not to go after individuals (whose behavior is more a symptom than the disease) but the root cause, the systemic influences that cause them to act that way.&lt;/pre&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is the part I disagree with (as seen in my linked comments). This is a defeatist attitude that acts as if people are mindless automata. We forge our own reality. No, we don't have complete control, but we have some control. We cannot directly control the large system, but we can control ourselves and we can strongly influence those around us.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Ultimately this is the root. There's no magic wizard in the sky making people do things, there is only us. Those "systematic reasons" are a bullshit excuse to pass blame[3]. All those things are created by us. The only reason we pretend it isn't is because the results of our actions are only observed after long periods of time. It's those small decisions that add up over time. With each action we choose a better future, a worse, or a neutral. No one can predict the future, but we have a lot of evidence that short term thinking leads to worse results. I'm not asking anyone analyze every move and overload themselves with the infinite chaos. But I am saying we all need to think a few steps ahead and consider unintended consequences. To not be so rash. If things were easy, they would have already been resolved, so we so really take a moment to consider more than our gut reaction.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But ultimately, only you can control you. I hope you advocate for others around you to make good and thoughtful decisions, but there's no dragon in a cave where we can get everyone together and defeat. The dragon only is at thing of our collective consciousness. Each person that decides to defect makes the dragon a little weaker, and each person that decides to believe in the dragons power makes it a little stronger. That's the choice.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43809695&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43852024&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43787383&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43824534&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892271"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lmm 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The problem was created by individuals deliberately acting collectively, not simply choosing one way or another in their routine individual capacities. The solution will require the same.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893818"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;walleeee 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This attitude willingly donates what agency you have to the people and things trying to take it from you.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Lead by example. Mimicry is real, we all do it whether or not we are aware. Every node in the graph influences others. If you must exhort, it works better if you follow your own advice.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Of course, be discerning as you do this, and don't expend your energy or goodwill where it will be wasted. Be like Gandalf.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Any dogmatic system is fault-tolerant, in that it will "route around" some amount of internal dissent, but this does not make it impregnable.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The ruts in our minds steer us just as much as those in the ground. But earth turns and so can we.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897160"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;godelski 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;It's disheartening how many people do not want to hear this. But it's the only way we can get things done. It's the same thing that led to this system we all hate, a race to the bottom. I posted this a week back. I think you'll enjoy the article if you haven't read it yet. Don't give up, you're not alone and I think we're gaining momentum. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43824534&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43900211"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;walleeee 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Cheers. I saw that one and liked it. I do wish the title was "It's not just the incentives". Incentives are people and artifices. The latter deceptive or not. But the point being in feedback.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43900631"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;godelski 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I think the intention of the title was to fire people up a little. Let them cook and not get away with passing the buck. Ultimately the incentive structures are a product of our actions, and the author does make that clear. So in effect, it all comes down to us.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43909938"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;walleeee 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Yeah, indeed it does. Can't know what each ear needs to hear to come alive to that, I guess.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43900149"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mark336 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;This is a problem with liberal thinking. Its brains over do the right thing.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895230"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dennis_jeeves2 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;The other elephants in the room are inflation and the housing market.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm not even sure if people are aware of inflation/housing as a completely solvable issue by the govt. I guess it's because people most people are clueless on how it is to be solved.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;We are a society of ladder-pullers.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's by design, to serve the rulers. It's an assembly line of slaves who are given some freedoms and are put through various stages of school, university, work and retirement. When most people retire they are left with little to nothing.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892851"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sethammons 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;My tuition was $35k a year 25 years ago. Just checked, and now it is $60k a year. Before room and board.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Broken? Saddling individuals with a quarter million in debt when they are just starting life is absolutely broken. That they must indenture to be a modern professional (and buy hope for at least a middle class landing) is broken.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The notion that everything must return a (generally, near-term) accounting profit is on its face stupid.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898352"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;vel0city 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;$35k/yr for tuition in 2000 was still an extremely expensive college. The school I went to in that decade was ~$10k/yr in tuition+fees and was the most expensive state school in my state at the time.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Even today, that university is considered expensive for the state at ~$8,200/semester.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897346"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;svachalek 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;$35k in 2000 is $65k now so that's actually decreased in real terms.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891848"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;nradov 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Sure, the system is broken but what's the alternative? Employers have a surplus of applicants for entry-level technical positions. They need to filter the applicant pool down to those with some level of competence and discipline. Possession of a college degree is a reasonably accurate proxy for those attributes: lots of false negatives but good enough from the employer's perspective.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Ideally maybe employers ought to rely on more targeted selection mechanisms. But this would be extremely expensive (and potentially legally risky due to equal opportunity laws) so most don't bother.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893264"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palata 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Sure, the system is broken but what's the alternative?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As I said, the only country I know where it is like that is the US.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43894896"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;shanusmagnus 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Are you saying the US is the only country that has an excess of applicants for entry-level positions? Or the only one for which credentialism is the solution to this problem? If the second, how does the place you're from solve it?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43898997"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palata 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;No, I am saying that the US is the only country I know where students pay 60k per year.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895518"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dennis_jeeves2 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;Sure, the system is broken but what's the alternative?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For a true solution, the entire taxation and monetary system will have to overhauled. It's of course not going to happen.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Transactions outside of the govt monetary system is effectively illegal or taxed so people are forced to participate by applying for jobs for their livelihood.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891191"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mschuster91 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; I would argue that if it costs $60,000, both your education system and the recruitment in those companies that require this degree are broken.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Meh, academic degrees don't come for free, someone has to pay for universities, staff and other expenses. In the US it's everyone for themselves by student loans that can't be discharged in bankruptcies, in Europe it's the tax payers.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The problem is, the ones profiting from the gatekeeping (aka employers) aren't the ones paying for it in either system. If employers had to pay, say, 10.000$ for each job listing that requires an academic degree without an actual valid reason, guess how fast that incentive would lead to employers not requiring academic degrees for paper-pusher bullshit jobs.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892274"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;necovek 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;In a sense, it still comes down to supply and demand — if applicants, upon graduating, all requested to be reimbursed for, say, 25% of their tuition up front and to the university they graduated from, we'd end up with reduced salaries compared to just distributing those 25% to the new employee over a number a years.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But how do you get all students to agree with this in principle when someone is in more rush to start earning an income than others?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;However, employers would then look to only hire from universities that do good teaching, so maybe it's a win-win?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891659"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dullcrisp 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;So like a payroll tax specific to jobs that require higher education?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892864"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mschuster91 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;No, only for jobs that claim to require higher education but do not. Basically, an "abuse tax" to reimburse the government (or the students) for having to spend money on something clearly not needed.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891651"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bluGill 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;There is also nobody cares about low prices but you can brag about how exclusive you are with high prices. One univertity near me automatically gives everyone a 40% scholarship - which is to say they have inflated their sticker price.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890464"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;jrmg 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;The work this degree will credential you for is so is so disconnected from the areas of study in your degree program - presumably in the same field as the job - that the majority of the things you might learn would not be valuable?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I can’t imagine this in my own life. I use concrete things and ways of thinking and working I learned in my CS degree _all the time_.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890547"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;mplanchard 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Heck my degree was in biochemistry, and now I’m a programmer, but I still feel like I am constantly using skills I developed in school. The scientific method and good test design transcend all sciences.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891667"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;gopher_space 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Same deal, went back for an Anthro degree but jumped back into programming when Ted Cruz killed research. I use that degree every day of my life.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891450"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;schwartzworld 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I honestly don’t know anybody who does what they went to undergrad for, unless that undergrad was preparation for a higher credential (premed/prelaw).&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891475"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;godelski 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;pre&gt;&amp;gt; I'm there for the degree&lt;/pre&gt;&lt;p&gt;Would you hire someone without a degree?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;When you're in a position to hire or influence hiring, will you consider those without degrees?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I ask because I hear this sentiment a lot but we still have a system becoming more reliant on degrees. The universities may be the gatekeepers of those degrees but they're not the ones gatekeeping the jobs. They have no influence there. They were not the ones who decided degree = credentials. I ask because many people eventually grow in their jobs to a point where they have significant influence over hiring. So when that time comes will you perpetuate the system you criticize or push against it? Truthfully, this is a thing that can be done with little to no risk to your own employment.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895316"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;dennis_jeeves2 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;Would you hire someone without a degree?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;A person is a idiot if he/she takes someone's competence at face value because of a degree. ( jobs aside - don't assume your doctor is competent because he has MD, it will cost you your life)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892042"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;icelancer 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I am generally education blind. Mostly I would say graduate school experience has been a net negative on my teams overall, if anything.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892223"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;godelski 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The second half seems to contradict the first. But I do condone the actions, as that's the only way things can change.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43922174"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;icelancer 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The second point led to the first one over time.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891881"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;hnfong 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Speaking personally, yes, very much so.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I see your point, but the issue is that it's quite futile to shame students for playing the game that people in the industry has set up. It doesn't help that in the past, college degrees were in fact more relevant than today, especially before the era of the internet and wikipedia, so if older people who are currently in charge of hiring aren't aware of these changes, they might just apply their outdated personal experience and just assume college degrees hold the same weight as they did in the past.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm pretty certain when kids these days eventually become responsible for hiring decisions, they probably will handle things differently since their experiences are different.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892322"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;godelski 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I do appreciate that you do that! People making change is the only way change can happen.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But I think the second part is amiss. I do agree that educators (being one) need to recognize the reality of the environment. But I think you also can't ignore that the reason the degrees are used to signal qualification is because the degree is intended to signal that some knowledge is held by a specific person. Yes, things have changed. It did used to be that interviews were much shorter, with a degree being a strong signal (at minimum, it is a signal that someone can sufficiently follow directions and manage their time). Should that mean those tasked with ensuring a student gets their education does not get their education? I get your point, but I think it is barking up the wrong tree. Asking academia to change only furthers the problem as it lets employers shift blame. It is like getting upset at a minimum wage worker for increased prices due to tariffs.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The really weird thing is we're now in this bizarroland setting where employers will filter for degree and then spend months and a lot of time and money putting candidates through testing rounds. Making them do tons of leetcode and other things to evaluate their performance. Where the candidates spend months studying to pass the interviews. And the complaints here are probably more apt, about how the material they need to study is not significantly relevant to the skills needed for a job[0]. Worse, it doesn't seem to be achieving the results it is setting out to seek.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As they say about the stock market "the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent". My point is that some academics are making classes easier. Grade inflation is a measurable phenomena and it sure got worse with Covid. My point is that employers are acting irrationally.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;[0] I'll give an example. I had an interview a few weeks ago and we had run a bit longer than expected prior to getting to the coding portion of the interview and where their coding software crashed a few times, giving us 10 minutes to do what was expected to be 30. Finally coding, the program crashed and I said "I don't use a lot of Juypter Notebooks, does the kernel crash when OOM?" I'm explaining my thought process aloud and frankly, I'd never hit this on the job. No answer. I quickly scroll through logs, say "I'm going to guess that's the issue, I'd normally guess and if wrong google it". Yes, it was the right answer. But there was no reason to do this, especially with me guessing right. This wasn't some dinky startup, it was a multi-trillion dollar company...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890469"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;efavdb 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;If this attitude prevails I would think the value of degrees will quickly diminish.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890508"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ebiester 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;This seems to be the general feeling of students right now.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Academia put itself as a gateway and barrier to the middle class. Why would we be surprised when people with no interest in anything but the goal are not enthralled by the process?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891071"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;alpinisme 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Academia put itself as a gateway&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;How did academia do that? It doesn’t seem like universities would have the power to do that. More likely, either employers put academia as a gateway. Or even: the culture at large misunderstood what pathways existed to middle class life. Or even: pathways to middle class life became scarcer and more insecure, and the real gatekeepers (hiring managers) had no good ways to select which of the many people at the door to let through.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891179"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bumby 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I agree with you (and upvoted) but consider this: why don’t fancy schools offer the same credentials for MOOCs if the information and assessment is on-par? I believe it is because they recognize the value of the credential and guard it closely.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891553"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;godelski 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think you missed the parent's point. Maybe consider this:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Why don't employers recognize the credentials of a MOOC to the same degree that they would a university degree?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We could similarly ask why employers value the degrees of some universities more than others.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think it's important to realize that ultimately the decisions come from the employers, not the universities. No one is making the employers do anything. But at least the second question might have a clearer partial answer. In part, there is a selection of a tribe, an implicit "culture fit" that's happening. It isn't uncommon to see employer bias towards specific universities. This is especially true with prestigious universities.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But it's not the universities that are making anyone do anything and that's an important distinction.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43894288"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bumby 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I brought up that I think the root problem is employers in a different comment, so I’m not missing that point.[1] The distinction is that I don’t think it’s a dichotomous problem. While colleges may not be the root problem, they can still be a contributor to the problem. (Besides, if an employer is to recognize a MOOC, that course completion has to be documented, which means it’s just another version of credential)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43890682&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897566"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;godelski 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I was responding to the comment you wrote. But I also disagree with the other one.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It is a confounding variable[0]. The problem with trying to go after the confounding variable is you 1) don't solve the problem after fixing it 2) let's the current negative feedback loop continue growing.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confounding&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897836"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bumby 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Nobody ever claimed the best fix is going after the proximate cause and not touching the root cause. That’s a narrative you contrived. I’m in favor of fixing both (which is how systemic improvements ought to work).&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43900010"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;godelski 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Look back at the thread:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;pre&gt;- ebiester claimed academia made itself the gatekeeper of credentials - alpinisme suggested that was silly. Employers have autonomy - you asked why MOOC classes don't get the same credentials - I said you missed alpinisme's point. The employer is the one that is deciding those credentials are not equal. I also pointed out how the same is true about different universities. Pointing out that you didn't need to say "MOOC" when "Stanford vs University of Wyoming" also leads to the same conclusion (which makes it weirder to point to academia as a whole instead of the prestigious unis) - you act like I was supposed to have read a reply to a different person while not addressing my point - I double down saying you're barking up the wrong tree. Take the finger and point it at employers - you say you never claimed employers aren't the problem and I'm creating a narrative&lt;/pre&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well you're right, you never claimed that. But ebiester did and when alpinisme called bullshit you came to ebiester's defense. Forgive me if I got confused.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Regardless, it still doesn't change the fact that the employers have complete autonomy. They can make whatever rules they want. There's no use to pointing at academia because ultimately they have no say. Do they want to be the credential keepers, yeah! Which also means they'll be happy to be the ones being yelled at if the result is that employers keep using them as credential makers.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Ultimately academia is about prestige. Ultimately it's about far more than "the product" (the credential). But who decides what credential is best? The fucking employers. No one is holding a gun to their head. There's no front door or back door dealings.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You have concluded that since academia benefits from the employers selecting them as credential makers that they are the problem, or a meaningful part. The issue is, if you take away academia, the problem doesn't get resolved. Nor does it improve. Arguably, it becomes more noisy until employers converge onto some other arbitrary credential&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43900721"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bumby 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;You realize employers are sometimes regulated by who they can hire, right? A nurse often must be licensed. An engineer who stamps designs (ie one who isn’t under an exemption) has to be licensed. One of the major steps in that process is getting an accredited degree. (Yes, there are edge cases where you may be licensed without an engineering degree, but those are so vanishingly rare as to not really be a factor).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There is certainly room for employers to stop over-credentialing jobs, but there’s also room for universities to improve their role in the process. Employers don’t have “complete autonomy”; we can’t just suddenly decide we’re going to create more nurses, doctors, engineers, and lawyers because we’ve found a loophole in the pipeline.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43901282"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;godelski 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;You are pointing out exceptions rather than the norms. Do not cherry-pick. I'm pretty confident that most people in these threads are thinking about computer programmers, white color jobs, and blue color jobs. Things that don't obviously need a degree.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Depending on the type of nurse, you do not need a degree. Some will need to pass an exam though. You can become a lawyer without a degree, only needing to pass the BAR. An engineer doesn't need a license. You are thinking of a Professional Engineer, which is a specific job title that has legal ramifications. This requires a degree but it also requires you working under another PE for some time and then passing state competency exams.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The cases we're talking about here are jobs where if you do something wrong you can kill hundreds or thousands of people and destroy millions or billions of dollars worth of assets. *You've just completely moved the goalpost to try to make your point.*&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Do you really honestly believe that these jobs shouldn't require a formal education?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm not going to take anyone seriously that is going to argue that medical doctors shouldn't receive formal educations. Come on, don't be dumb. Just have a normal fucking conversation. You don't have to double down and back yourself into a corner.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I know you're not that dumb, so stop bring disingenuous.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43904149"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bumby 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I’m not moving the goalposts. Your words were that employers have “complete autonomy”. That’s obviously not the case, and those are pretty large swaths of professions to pretend like they are edge cases. And FWIW, if you read up on engineer licensure, you’ll realize it isn’t just a small subset of engineers falling under the purview of the regulations but there are carve-outs for “industrial exemptions”. Most people don’t even realize they’re working under an exemption. But many states are bring these exemptions into questions due to high profile failures like Boeing etc. (and the exam is national, but the license is state).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We agree on most, I just think you tend to think on absolutes and I do not. I don’t think most current degree progressions need degrees, but I’m willing to recognize there is a large subset what do. And colleges still hold a monopoly on those degree. But the fact you can’t follow HN guidelines because you’re proved to argue makes further discussion boring and fruitless.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43894966"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ebiester 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Academia did it with advertising. And it used some of the strategies founded by its marketing, communications, and psychology departments.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It also recognized the GI Bill as an opportunity and also sent lobbyists for the HEA in 1965.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890682"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bumby 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Academia clearly lost their monopoly on information. Since their last moat is a monopoly on credentials, I expect them to defend it intensely.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We could make it less meaningful if employers weren’t so keen on using credentials as their own gateway. That may have more of a chance of happening if the OPs perspective becomes more prevalent and the credential becomes an increasingly worse signal for meaningful skills.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895060"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;ebiester 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;They didn't have a monopoly on information anytime in the 20th century. If you wanted to have all the knowledge, it could be expensive to acquire a personal library, but nothing was stopping you from acquiring the same textbooks. Heck, until the information age it was pretty easy to forge a credential.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But it wasn't about credentials even. It was about inculcating a culture. You knew that someone had the knowledge and ability to reach university, and you knew that they had a shared common culture with you. Shared common culture and norms increases trust. Credentials mattered for doctors, but universities, in the end, were selling something far more intangible: culture.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43895722"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bumby 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;High barriers to entry are a feature of monopolies. Saying I could start my own railroad by simply buying up billions of dollars of land and investing billions more in equipment isn’t a compelling argument against the idea of a monopoly.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891731"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;geysersam 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;In what way does academia have monopoly on credentials?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You can start issuing your own credentials tomorrow.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891843"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sigmaisaletter 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I don't know where you live, but in the "developed" parts of the world this is illegal. There will either be some government agency or some council of credential-giving institutions and they will give you a license to issue degrees, or most likely they will not give it to you.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892009"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zmgsabst 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;In the US, you can just make up degrees — but you have to be honest that you’re unaccredited.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Accreditation is regulated by NGOs who need government approval and without that you cant received financial aid (or participate in some programs) — but you can hand out pieces of paper for completing your program.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://www.ed.gov/laws-and-policy/higher-education-laws-and...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43894325"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bumby 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;There are accreditation bodies. So I don’t think your self-proclaimed engineering degree is going to help you get a job or a professional engineering license like one from an ABET accredited school.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890679"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lurking_swe 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;That’s a disingenuous argument. You don’t know what you don’t know. Literally. A completely self guided high school graduate following random online materials will not learn nearly as much on their own. Or they will go down rabbit holes and waste countless hours, and not having an expert unblock you or guide you down the right path would waste a lot of time.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Further, some high school graduates (like myself at the time) literally don’t know HOW to learn on their own. I thought I did but college humbled me, made me realize that suddenly i’m in the drivers seat and my teachers won’t be spoon feeding me knowledge step by step. it’s a really big shift.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you were the perfect high school graduate, then congrats, you’re like the 0.01%! And you should be proud (no sarcasm). This doesn’t describe society at large though.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For the very few that are extremely motivated and know exactly what job they want, i do think we need something in between self guided and college? No BS - strictly focusing on job training. Like a boot camp, but one that’s not a scam haha.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The other aspect of college you ignore is, it is a way to build a network prior to entering the workforce. It’s also one of the best times to date, but that’s another story.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Completely agree that the cost of college in the US is ridiculous though.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891170"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;bumby 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;The other aspect of college you ignore is, it is a way to build a network prior to entering the workforce.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don’t know how generalizable this is. I remember reading a few studies trying to assess if Ivy League education was really more valuable that a state school. The result (IIRC) was that it only matters for students who came from the lowest economic strata; the authors presumed it was due to the network effect. But that also means the network effect was negligible for the majority of students.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891545"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tcmart14 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;I used to work for a guy who had his engineering degree from Harvard. I was out of the Navy, got a job but also had a GI bill and was looking to go to school for engineering while working full time. I asked him his advise. Pretty much he said is to go to a state school. The only real benefit, at least for engineering from Ivy League, is the network, which can make getting the first job easier. Otherwise the course work is the pretty much the same.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891829"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sigmaisaletter 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;"A completely self guided high school graduate following random online materials will not learn nearly as much on their own."&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think you underestimate how bad some high schools really are.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892311"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;spiderxxxx 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt;That’s a disingenuous argument. You don’t know what you don’t know. Literally. A completely self guided high school graduate following random online materials will not learn nearly as much on their own. Or they will go down rabbit holes and waste countless hours, and not having an expert unblock you or guide you down the right path would waste a lot of time.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Citation needed. There's great books out there that provide a lot of guidance down a particular path. I'd say a lot of them do, and I can't imagine online learning sources would be worse. There's online communities for learners for specific subjects that are full of people offering good advice.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892469"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lurking_swe 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don’t have the time to provide a citation, my apologies.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I’ll leave you with this thought though. Of all the professions, tech is probably the one where this is the easiest to do. There are many companies that don’t require a bachelors. For most of the last 15-20 years tech was in a “boom” cycle, and yet the vast majority of software engineers I met DID have a bachelors degree.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Why? If it’s as easy as “pick up a book”, then why didn’t more people take that path? I think very few people have the drive and discipline to accomplish a full career prep on their own.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If your hypothesis was true, wouldn’t tech be mostly filled with self-taught engineers?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893355"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tpmoney 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I would argue that while tech is the easiest to get into without a degree:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;1) The cultural zeitgeist around higher education (at least in the US) is and has been "you must go to college and get a degree". It's been over 20 years since I dropped out of my first university. I'm doing just fine, and yet to this day, I will be asked by older members of my extended family if or when I'm going back to "finish" my degree, or whether my company will offer tuition assistance to help me go back. If you graduate high school these days (and for at least the past few decades), the expectation is that you go to college and get a degree. And if you're going to have to do that anyway, you might as well get the degree in the field you want to go into.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;2) As a corollary to that, while new / younger companies might have set aside the degree requirements, the big tech houses definitely still preferred them and having the paper was still a leg up in the hiring and recruitment process. And even in companies without an explicit preference for a degree, it's often listed as a requirement on the job posting. "BS or Equivalent Experience" is easier to match both as a candidate and as an employer if the candidate has the BS as that is an objectively verifiable fact.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891672"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;SpicyLemonZest 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The purpose of the writing exercise is to produce a positive correlation between the possession of a degree and the skills that high-paying white collar jobs value. I don't blame students for not knowing that, or for not having the outside perspective to care. But positive signals of job competence are hard to come by, employers don't just blindly accept them despite what people like to say, and it's going to suck for new graduates if this one is eliminated.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890431"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zeroq 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;You're missing trees for forest.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;When I was a kid and got an assignement for writing an essey about "why good forces prevailed in Lords of the Rings" as a gate check to see if I actually read the novel I had three choices: (a) read the novel and write the essey myself (b) find an already written essey - not an easy task in pre-internet era but we had books with esseys on most common topics you could "copy-paste" - and risk that the professor is familiar with the source or someone else used the same source (c) ask class mate to give me their essey as a template and rephrase it as my own&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;A and C would let me learn about the novel and let me polish my writing skills.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Today I can ask ChatGPT to write me a 4 pages essay about a novel I've never heard of and call it a day. There's no value gained in the process.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's a simple example. The problem is that the same applies to programming. Novice programmer will claim that LLM give them power to take on hard tasks and programm in languages they were not familiar before. But they are not gaining any skill nor knowledege from that experience.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If I ask google maps to plot me a directions from Prague to Brussels it will yield a list of turns that will guide me to my destinations, but by any means I can't claim I've learned topography of Germany in the process.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893374"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tpmoney 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Today I can ask ChatGPT to write me a 4 pages essay about a novel I've never heard of and call it a day. There's no value gained in the process.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If we take the original article at face value, no you can't do that. ChatGPT will apparently produce something that is obviously ChatGPT produced and fail to fool even the most absent minded of instructors that you have read the material. So even with a ChatGPT LLM to help you out, you're largely going to have to do a modified version of C, replacing your class mate with the LLM and adding in the need to do your own reading and validation to ensure that the text matches the actual book contents.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; If I ask google maps to plot me a directions from Prague to Brussels it will yield a list of turns that will guide me to my destinations, but by any means I can't claim I've learned topography of Germany in the process.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I would argue that even if you plotted a route by hand reading maps, you can't claim to have learned the topography of Germany either. "The map isn't the territory" after all.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43896304"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;thugthrasher 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;ChatGPT and the like are in a weird position at the moment. It's usually pretty clear that you have written it using an LLM, but it's hard to PROVE. And you need to be able to prove it (to some degree, which varies depending on the institution) to reliably count off for it, otherwise the student will challenge your finding that they cheated and the Honor Court (or administrator, or other equivalent) will tell you that you can't do that.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So, you can usually get away with it if there is not some way the professor/TA can prove it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As things change, this will change, but that's the situation the author of the original article finds themself in, because it's the current situation.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43897378"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;golergka 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; If we take the original article at face value, no you can't do that. ChatGPT will apparently produce something that is obviously ChatGPT produced and fail to fool even the most absent minded of instructors that you have read the material.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Only if you don't have any custom instructions about style and don't proofread it afterwards. All the usual "tells" of ChatGPT are very obvious to scrub out, and you don't have to use OpenAI's chat wrapper to begin with.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43900691"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tpmoney 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Ok, but if you're going to proofread ChatGPT's output and edit it and massage it until you get something that isn't obviously the output of the LLM, how is that different from taking your buddy's homework and changing enough of the text to make it look like you didn't copy it? In either case you have to read what someone else wrote and comprehend it enough to decide what should or shouldn't change.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892136"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;xeyownt 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Novice programmer will claim that LLM give them power to take on hard tasks and programm in languages they were not familiar before. But they are not gaining any skill nor knowledege from that experience.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Not true.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Using LLM to learn quickly a new programming language + being productive is best method ever. If you pay attention, you acquire rapidly new skill and knowledge, and those that are relevant to your job.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Using LLM is MUCH more efficient than reading a book going through all the minute details of the language prior telling how to use it. It's the same as learning a language from your parents compared to learning a language from a class. You might not know all the grammar rules, but you'll be way more proficient. And nothing prevents you from learning the grammar later on.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892973"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chrisandchris 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Using LLM to learn quickly a new programming language + being productive is best method ever. If you pay attention, you acquire rapidly new skill and knowledge, and those that are relevant to your job.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I tend to disgree. maybe for you, but my mind does not work that way.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As a teacher at a university I come to see that students "learn" by asking an LLM, but they forget to understand the content the LLM produces because the LLM actually solves the assignment (mostly) for them. One may say that's the teachers task to produce better questions, but the thing I most "struggle" with that getting educated as a student seems to just be a play of "gaming the system". Yes, it was similar during my time (learning how to reach your goal with as less effort as possible is a good part of the "education" at a university IMHO), but we actually had to think and understand while today just seems like prompt-and-copy.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890452"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;palata 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;essay*&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;(I don't usually do that, but it appears so many times in the first few sentences that I had to do it here)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I agree with your points, though, but I think that they are in agreement with the comment you are answering to...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890673"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zeroq 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Hehe, it's fine, at least it proves that the post was written by human. ;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And yeah, and revisiting the OP we're on the same track.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892476"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;chrismorgan 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; If I ask google maps to plot me a directions from Prague to Brussels it will yield a list of turns that will guide me to my destinations, but by any means I can't claim I've learned topography of Germany in the process.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There are multiple ways you can use such technology, too. If you use Google Maps with its out-of-the-box configuration for turn-by-turn directions, with it oriented in the direction of travel, you won’t learn so much; but if you change it to always display the map north-up, and look at the map it shows you—inferior though it be to good paper maps, in most cases—it’s easier to develop a feel for layouts and geography.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890514"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;leereeves 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; But they are not gaining any skill nor knowledege from that experience.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It sounds like you agree with GP.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891436"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;scarface_74 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;In the pre-Internet era there were Cliff Notes.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890571"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;fallinditch 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's been obvious since ChatGPT blew up in early 2023 that educators had to rethink how they educate.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I agree that this situation that the author outlines is unsatisfactory but it's mostly the fault of the education system (and by extension the post author). With a class writing exercise like the author describes, of course the students are going to use an LLM, they would be stupid not to if their classmates are using it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The onus should be on the educators to reframe how they teach and how they test. It's strange how the author can't see this.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Universities and schools must change how they do things with respect to AI, otherwise they are failing the students. I am aware that AI has many potential and actual problems for society but AI, if embraced correctly, also has the potential to transform the educational experience in positive ways.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890855"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;EvgeniyZh 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; they would be stupid not to if their classmates are using it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Why would they be stupid? Were people before LLMs stupid for not asking smarter classmate/parent/paid contractor to solve the homework for them?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Large part of education is learning about things that can be easily automated, because you can't learn hard things without learning easy things. Nothing conceptually changed in this regard, like Wolfram Alpha didn't change the way differentiation is taught.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890936"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;fallinditch 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Agreed, my bad choice of words. I really meant 'stupid' from a slightly ironic, competitive point of view. It's like the pressure to cheat in professional sport is obviously so intense, I'm sure a lot of a cheat's motivation is to remain competitive because their colleagues are cheating so they feel they have to as well, otherwise they lose.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891098"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;EvgeniyZh 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;YMMV, in my uni there is more or less zero impact of cheating in your homeworks in most classes: the homework has low weight in final grade and are graded very generously.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I agree that making assignments not designed with external sources in mind significantly impact the final grade is not ideal. I think this is minor and easily fixable point rather than some failure of the whole education system.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891603"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;roland35 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;What's funny about this is if you are an athlete who cheats constantly while growing up - you'll never develop the skills to be able to make it as a pro. Interesting how students don't see this same situation with their homework&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892173"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lmm 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Were people before LLMs stupid for not asking smarter classmate/parent/paid contractor to solve the homework for them?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In American universities where your GPA from your in-class assessments forms part of your final grade? Yes, absolutely.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Where I came from you do your learning in class and your assessment in a small, short set of exams (and perhaps one graded essay) at the end of each year. That seems far more conducive to learning things without having to juggle two competing objectives the whole time.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43901617"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;EvgeniyZh 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; In American universities where your GPA from your in-class assessments forms part of your final grade? Yes, absolutely.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Whether not doing everything to maximize your GPA is "stupid" (literally or figuratively) is a good question too.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But even if your assignments influence your GPA it's rarely the only thing that does, and not doing assignments will harm your ability to perform in midterm/exam/whatever.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890665"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;easygenes 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;Amusingly, when I asked o3 to propose changes to the education system which address the author's complaints wrt writing assignments, one of the first things it suggested was transparent prompt logging (basically what the author proposes).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://chatgpt.com/share/6817fe76-973c-8011-acf3-ef3138c144...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890842"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;fallinditch 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;O3 actually came up with a good blueprint for an 'AI-centric teaching guide'. Impressive.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891189"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;qingcharles 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'll leave this link here in case you feel like being depressed today:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;https://www.reddit.com/r/ChatGPT/comments/1hun3e4/my_little_...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891421"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;fallinditch 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;It seems to me that the little sister is acting rationally. Yes it's a bit lazy but then: when was the last time you used a calculator for a calculation that you could have done in your head? Do you actually need to be able to do mental arithmetic, do you actually really need to be able to work out what 24 + 7 is in your head?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't know what the answer is. I'm old school, if it was up to me I'd bring back slide rules and log tables, because that's such a visual and tactile way of getting to know mathematics and numbers.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's interesting to consider how AI is affecting humans' cognition skills. Is it going to make us stupid or free us up to use our mental capacities for higher level activities? Or both?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891461"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;scarface_74 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Even with a calculator and more so with ChatGPT, you still need to know whether an answer passes the sniff test.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43893415"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;tpmoney 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;One thing missing from the reddit story is how the author knows their sister is using ChatGPT to obtain the answer as opposed to validating work. I'll often punch a calculation I've already done in my head into a calculator to confirm for myself I landed on the right answer. Or come up with a solution to a problem, find myself wondering if there's a better solution or just feel like it doesn't quite look right and search for solutions online to compare and contrast. I'm not using the calculator or search to replace my work, I'm using it as the sniff test. But you couldn't determine that just by knowing my inputs to the calculator and google. You'd have to see the entire process.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892195"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lmm 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Only in a few fields. You can have a successful career publishing papers in the social sciences, or justifying decisions in middle-management, without being able to know whether an effect size passes the sniff test - actually not knowing will probably help you make convenient mistakes.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892931"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;sethammons 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;24 plus 7 is 41 or 94 or 3 and 4/7 are all obviously wrong, but only if you have developed number sense. I've had students who wouldn't bat an eye at any of those solutions.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43892996"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;lawn 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; With a class writing exercise like the author describes, of course the students are going to use an LLM, they would be stupid not to if their classmates are using it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Its only stupid if you try to optimize for the wrong things (finishing quickly, just getting a pass).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'd say it's very smart if you don't rely on LLMs, copy the homework from someone else, or similar; because you're optimizing for learning, which will help you more than the various shortcuts.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890802"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;AdieuToLogic 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; The onus should be on the educators to reframe how they teach and how they test. It's strange how the author can't see this.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; Universities and schools must change how they do things with respect to AI, otherwise they are failing the students.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Hard disagree.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Students need to answer a fundamental question of themselves;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;pre&gt;Am I here to learn or to get a passing grade?&lt;/pre&gt;&lt;p&gt;If it is the former, the latter doesn't really matter.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If it is the latter, the former was not the point to begin with.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890872"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zamadatix 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Why isn't both a valid option, can't one be at a university to both learn and get a degree+GPA showing they did well at doing so? In any case, why does a student selecting that they are there to learn negate the responsibility of the university to provide the best curricula for students to do so with?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891035"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;alpinisme 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;The assumption you are making is that students consistently using llms is required by the best curriculum. That’s a big assumption. There may be value educationally in forcing students to learn how to do things on their own that an llm could do for them. And in that case, it’s the student failing their education if they circumvent it with an llm, not the institution’s.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43891087"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zamadatix 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;At times there is value in that kind of approach, especially when the learning is specifically about those kinds of lower layers instead of higher concepts. As such, it's not that certain tools should be used in every assignment or never ever used, just whether they should be used commonly.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For most continued learning it's better if the university uses calculators, compilers, prepared learning materials, and other things that do stuff on behalf of the students instead of setting the bar permanently to "the student should want to engage everything at a base level or they must not be here to learn". It allows much more advanced learning to be done in the long run.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43900492"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;AdieuToLogic 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; For most continued learning it's better if the university uses calculators, compilers, prepared learning materials, and other things that do stuff on behalf of the students instead of setting the bar permanently to "the student should want to engage everything at a base level or they must not be here to learn".&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;IMHO, the example of using calculators in a learning environment is a great topic to explore.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Using calculators in a university setting is entirely reasonable as it is expected students have already mastered the math calculators automate. Formulae calculators are also included as, again, the expectation is a student capable of defining them have an understanding of what they are and when to use them.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Now, contrast the above with using calculators in elementary school, where basic math is an entirely new concept and the subject being taught. Here, the expectation is students learn how to perform the operations themselves through varied exercises, questions to the instructor, and practice.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;gt; It allows much more advanced learning to be done in the long run.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Only if the fundamentals have already been established. Which leads back to my original question:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;pre&gt;Am I here to learn or to get a passing grade?&lt;/pre&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43907188"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zamadatix 7 months ago | root | parent | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;While I agree with nearly everything you say here, 90% of college isn't about sticking to the fundamentals like how elementary students didn't use calculators at first. This leads to the disagreement this discussion is related to the statement "Am I here to learn or to get a passing grade?". We both agree students need to be there to learn to get anything useful out of the university, what we're disagreeing on is how they best do that for the majority of university level content.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr id="43890882"&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;table border="0"&gt;&lt;tbody&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td&gt;&lt;div&gt;zarathustreal 7 months ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Universities do not provide knowledge, this is a romanticization of an ideal. They are about getting a passing grade and a certificate so that you can enter the workforce. The idea that you go to college to get an education is just a polite fiction to appease students and their parents&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;/tbody&gt;&lt;/table&gt;&lt;/td&g
No results found